1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Power of Purpose

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 3
  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    The purpose of God in sending any particular light is significant.

    God's purpose in sending the law:

    To reveal man's inability to attain righteousness by law through works, and thus realize they need a gracious savior. In other words, the law might lead them to look for someone who says, "Come unto me all who are burdened and I will give you rest," because the law helps them to see that they can't do it alone. The burden is to great!

    God's purpose in sending the gospel:

    To reveal the narrow path to attain righteousness by grace through faith in Christ who fulfilled the law once and for all. The gospel is the appeal of God sent to all creation to "be reconciled to God." It's, 'whosoever believes will be saved' and it calls all who are weak, lost and in need to come and find rest and healing. The purpose is to call all men to faith and repentance so they may be saved.

    Does the purpose of God matter? Does His Word return to him void or does it accomplish the purpose for which He sent it? The purpose of the gospel is to make an appeal, and to enable men to come and find rest. The purpose of the law was NEVER to do this. Does the purpose for which the law and the gospel were sent actually matter?

    Conclusion: To PRESUME that because mankind is unable to fulfill the demands of the law in order to attain righteousness (which was NEVER its purpose), then man must be equally unable to respond to God's gracious and powerful gospel appeal to be reconciled (which is its purpose) is completely unfounded Biblically.

    THE PURPOSE MATTERS!
     
    #1 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    First, there is NO POWER in purpose, in the law or in the gospel as POWER is found only IN GOD's PERSON.

    Second, the purpose of the law is not accomplished in all men as many men die in self-righteousness just as many men die without ever hearing the gospel but condemned by the light they willfully violated.

    Third, the inability established by all men coming short of the law's demands is inherent in the fallen nature rather than God's fault or circumstantial fault. The inability is to be subject to the LAW of God. The Law of God are the commandments of God or any commandment that originates with God, regardless of its content (moral, civil, ceremonial, gospel).

    Fourth,The same inability that is proven to be inherent in the fallen nature in regard to God's law is equally still inherent in the fallen nature to any other command originating from God.

    Finally, the fallen nature and its inherent inability is NOT CHANGED BY SALVATION but merely OVERRULED by a new creature and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Hence, salvation is about a new creature in addition to an unchanged fallen nature.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Dec 20, 2013
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Semantics. We are talking about God's purpose...that should be a given.

    And whose fault is that? Paul says men are without excuse, but your system gives them the excuse back by suggesting that some were born hated by God and not granted what was needed. The scripture teaches that God patiently holds out his hands to the rebellious (Rm. 10:21) and longs to gather them under his wings of salvation (Mt 23:37) and doesn't delight in the perishing of any, but wants all to repent and be saved (Pt 3:9), and sends an appeal to 'all creation' calling them to be reconciled (2 Cor 5).

    I believe this is a HUGE weakness in the Calvinistic system, because to call something inherent is just a subtle, a clearly ineffective, attempt to separate God from that decision, because you know full well that one divine decree brings your whole system crumbing down into fatalism and divine culpability.

    Is this the one thing God didn't have sovereign control over in creation? He couldn't control the consequences of the fall or the inability of man to respond to His own appeals or commands? Really? What does 'inherent' mean anyway? And what about that definition removes God from the equation? You have to own that about your system...it is its fatal flaw.

    inherent - "existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute. Belonging by nature " -Websters

    Is not all that exists created and sustained by God? Is this attribute the one thing God just had no control over? He had no say in the consequences of the fall? Further more, did he have no control in the enabling power of his revelation to overcome that fallen disability?

    Total Inability was a CHOICE of God...just own that. I understand why you have to defend against owning it and avoid admitting it at all cost, but there is no way around it brother.
     
    #3 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    You wish it were semantics but it is the very heart of our disagreement as I deny there is any power inherent scriptures, in the gospel as the word can come "in word only" and NOT "in power and in the Spirit and IN MUCH ASSURANCE" and that should be self-evident.

    Your whole system depends inherent power in the gospel and you know it, so to try to dismiss this difference as "semantics" is either a very clever deceptive act on your part or acknowledgment that you are completely ignorant of the real issues between us.

    Total humanity existed and consisted in ONE MAN and acted in unison to deliberately foreit the STATE OF ABILITY TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN and fell into the STATE OF INABILITY TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN by one disobedient act by one man (Rom. 5:12-19).

    From birth man is driven by the very essence of enmity to God as their heart motive is entirely without God but entirely dominated and characterized by SELFISH motives that are readily seen and only grow more obvious every day from birth the child lives and which characterize all who are "in the flesh" as all "in the flesh CANNOT please God" and thus cannot believe as without faith it is impossible to please God and thus none "in the flesh" can believe or else they could "please God."


    but your system gives them the excuse back by suggesting that some were born hated by God and not granted what was needed. The scripture teaches that God patiently holds out his hands to the rebellious (Rm. 10:21) and longs to gather them under his wings of salvation (Mt 23:37) and doesn't delight in the perishing of any, but wants all to repent and be saved (Pt 3:9), and sends an appeal to 'all creation' calling them to be reconciled (2 Cor 5).
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Dec 20, 2013
  5. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    Exactly. The OP should be titled 'The Glory Of Man and his Power!' It is purely humanistic in essence and reasoning, nothing more or less than glory to man. :tear:

    This is why I still say he doesn't get 'not of yourselves' nor does he get 'so that no human being might boast in the presence of God'.
     
    #5 preacher4truth, Dec 20, 2013
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oh brother....now I'm remembering why I put you on ignore earlier...

    wow. :rolleyes:
     
    #6 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  7. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    If I could return the favor, believe me, I would. I've exactly described your doctrine. It's humanistic and so is your OP. :thumbs:
     
    #7 preacher4truth, Dec 20, 2013
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    This post is about God's purposes in saving man. I made that clear.

    But since you bring it up...God, in his grace, does share his glory with man. He is really awesome like that.

    "not of yourselves" means "not of yourselves" and I don't believe those being helped by the powerful revelation of God are acting 'of themselves,' but apparently you do.

    If I boast it will be that I understand and know God, that HE IS the LORD, who is KIND, JUST and RIGHTEOUS!!!
     
    #8 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Do you mean like your whole system depends on inherent inability in man?

    Ironic how that word 'inherent' comes back around to bite you, huh?

    God decides what is 'inherent' and what isn't. Own it.
     
    #9 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    You're still incorrect due to your faulty foundation. God doesn't share His glory in the way you describe, but at least you are admitting that you are in fact boasting. Isaiah 42:8.


    You have no evidence to go by to prove your false indictment, but this is typical you behavior, to accuse without substance, twist what others say on your merry go round. You believe man is 'helped' by God, we believe God does it all. There we have it, God simply helps man. Unreal.

    And boast you do. You don't believe in 'not of yourselves', nor do you get it as thread after thread you start prove this. It is always about giving man glory. Nor do you understand 1 Corinthians 1:29 concerning not boasting as you are giving glory to man in your arminian system, as that is what the entire system is built upon.
     
    #10 preacher4truth, Dec 20, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Another unequal comparison. My whole system depends upon the effectual power of God when it comes to salvation.

    When it comes to man's fallen nature to be subject to the commands of God my system does depend upon total inability just as scriptures explicitly states.

    Romans 8:8 attributes the condition expressed in Romans 8:7 to all who are "in the flesh" does it not? It says this condition is the explanation why all in the flesh "CANNOT please God" right? Isn't it the most essential thing to please God to have "faith" - Heb. 11:6????? Does not Romans 8:7-8 then completely repudiate that the carnal mind has ability to beleive because if that were not true then they CAN (ability) please God!
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Dec 20, 2013
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    That's it right there. Good word brother. :thumbs:
     
    #12 preacher4truth, Dec 20, 2013
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    same thing...the reason you need 'effectual grace' is because you presume 'inherent' disability. Yet, you won't face what 'inherent' actually means in your SOVEREIGN worldview where all that exists if OF GOD AND FOR GOD.

    I guess God was gone the day that mother nature decided the consequences of the fall? Interesting doctrine.
     
    #13 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    inherent inability is not a presumption but the repeated explicit clear teaching of scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

    Jonah learned it quite quickly after three days in the deep that "salvation is of the Lord."

    I have no idea what you are talking about as it does not relate to anything I beleive. Please don't contribute to my belief system things which are completely irrational and rejected by me. You don't like it when others do this to you, do you?
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Dec 20, 2013
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    That was actually a quote taken from Jeremiah 9 which states, "but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."

    So, you can debate the Lord on that point.

    And regarding God sharing his glory with us, you are misapplying some OT passages. He will not share his glory with another 'god' or an 'idol' as he is a 'jealous' God in that manner. But he does share his glory with us according to scripture:

    John 17:10
    All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

    John 17:22
    I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
     
    #15 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    You're right...I overstated for a point. But can you define 'inherent' for us and explain how God doesn't have control over:

    1. The 'inherent' consequences of the fall as it relates to man's natural abilities
    OR
    2. The "inherent" inability of His revelation for those fallen

    Is that something God just didn't have control over in your perspective? Was that not His decision?
     
    #16 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    You fully well know that in regard to salvation there is no room for boasting (Rom. 3:27; 4:1-2) except in the cross because nothing in man or what man can do (works) helps obtain salvation or otherwise it would not be of grace and righteousness by imputation.

    Secondly, the glory that we will share does not refer to the glory which belongs only to God for what HE ALONE DOES. Jesus is referring to the STATE of glory or heaven and sinlessness which we will share.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Dec 20, 2013
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree...and that is what I was saying by quoting almost verbatim from the text.

    Obviously.

    Right. By grace he shares his glory with us...Rom 8:16-17: The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be GLORIFIED with him.

    2 Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
     
    #18 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Did you see this post?
     
    #19 Skandelon, Dec 20, 2013
  20. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: to infinity and beyond.
     
    #20 quantumfaith, Dec 20, 2013
Page 1 of 3
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...