Thief On The Cross

[Trying2DoRight]

Which version is the correct
account of what really happened
at the cross?

A.
Matthew 27
38Then were there two thieves crucified with him,
one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their
heads,
40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and
buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the
Son of God, come down from the cross.
41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the
scribes and elders, said,
42He saved others; himself he cannot save.
If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down
from the cross, and we will believe him.
43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he
will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him,
cast the same in his teeth.

B.
Luke 23
33And when they were come to the place, which is
called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors,
one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not
what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them
derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself,
if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering
him vinegar,
37And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38And a superscription also was written over him in letters
of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise.

 

[kyredneck]

Truth Versus Tradition: Who Was Crucified with Jesus?

"...Dr. E. W. Bullinger, in his appendices to his “Companion Bible,” has provided a comprehensive analysis of the evidence that there were four crucified with Christ, not two, and that the robbers and malefactors were not the same individuals...."

"The gospel of John is interesting in regard to the number of those who were crucified with Christ.

John 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

The little secret here is that the word “one” has no corresponding word in the text. It was simply added arbitrarily to conform to what was already the traditional picture by the time of the original King James translation in 1611. Nearly all more modern versions have followed suit. But it should read along the lines of: Where they crucified him and with him others, two on this side and on that side [enthathein kai enthathathein]."


Not saying that this is what I hold to, but I haven't ruled it out.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Which version is correct?

They both are.

The answer that kyredneck posted is plausible. There are a lot of commentators who believe in multiple crosses that day, not just three.

I've always felt that another plausible explanation is that the thief who ended his life pleading for Jesus not forget him could quite possibly and initially scorned him.

Imagine the pain and agony they were in. Lashing out - even at the stranger next to do dying with you - it's what I would do.

Those men, including Jesus, were on those crosses for hours. Could it not be that for after scorning Jesus, the thief who accepted Jesus did so out of watching Him and listening to His words. How many powerful, powerful sermons and teachings have we been exposed to that described the last words of Jesus and it moved us to tears and praise.

Imagine hanging beside Him and hearing those words first hand and seeing His innocence with your own eyes.

Perhaps in those six hours the thief who defended Jesus had his eyes opened and went from derision to belief.

I've seen the wretched and lost take lot less time than that.

 

[kyredneck]

....Imagine the pain and agony they were in.....

I learned the other day that 'excruciating' has it's roots from 'crucifixion'.

Old dogs can learn.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Which version is correct?

They both are.

The answer that kyredneck posted is plausible. There are a lot of commentators who believe in multiple crosses that day, not just three.

I've always felt that another plausible explanation is that the thief who ended his life pleading for Jesus not forget him could quite possibly and initially scorned him.

Though I'm not an adherent to the "multiple crosses" concept, it is possible, and that the biblical writers chose only to mention those closest to Jesus in His agony. I think your last scenario here, that the thief initially scorned Christ and then pleaded for forgiveness -- "Remember me ... " -- is entirely plausible and possible. Perhaps he at first did not realize who was being crucified next to him, given he was probably centered on his own pending death, having also dragged his cross up to the top of the hill. He probably paid no attention to who was following, or who had gone before.

Then, as he heard the comments and testimony of those around Jesus' cross, he came to realize this was the one he (may have) heard of, preaching and healing across Galilee and Judea. Perhaps he put two and two together, and realized this man was the One the jailors or other prisoners had spoken of who had entered Jerusalem just six days earlier in a triumph, and now hung on the cross next to him. In faith, he spoke before Jesus took his dying breath.

When one thinks of it in that fashion, it is an amazing testimony of the power of God.

 

[Scarlett O.]

When one thinks of it in that fashion, it is an amazing testimony of the power of God.

It really is amazing. Two men, suffering the the same fate and sharing the same intimate experience of dying with Jesus Christ and hearing His final and intimate personal words - and one scorns and one accepts.

Just like Cain and Abel, two men having the same knowledge, the same directives, the same purpose in life and one rejects God even AFTER God tells him privately and personally what to do to be accepted and the other accepted freely to begin with.

It's a picture of the world. The concept of right and wrong is implanted in all of our hearts. No one has an excuse. Romans 1:18-20

Eternity is implanted in all of our hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11

Just like the Cain, the rich young ruler, the 5000+ who were miraculously fed and whom Jesus gave an intense teaching on who He was - they all rejected the voice of God and Jesus.

That's why people deserve hell. They KNOW. Yet when confronted by God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, they reject the truth embrace the lie.

 

[kyredneck]

...Just like the Cain...

Well, we're told in no uncertain terms that Cain was of the evil one.

..the rich young ruler....

That's another story. The young man in Mk 10 RAN to Christ, KNEELED before Him, and addressed Him with DIVINE RESPECT, and Christ loved the young man and did not dispute the young man's claim of doing those things of the law, and it was not Christ that the young man rejected, it was Christ's call to discipleship:

"....All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Mt 19:20,21

This is just a snapshot of this young man, similar to the one given of Nicodemus in Jn 3, they both were attracted to the Saviour. Who knows if he didn't become as one of those in Acts 2 who 'sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need'.

I choose not to judge him harshly, it doesn't appear that Christ did.

... the 5000+ who were miraculously fed and whom Jesus gave an intense teaching on who He was - they all rejected the voice of God and Jesus.

They all rejected? Surely not.

That's why people deserve hell. They KNOW. Yet when confronted by God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, they reject the truth embrace the lie.

Actually we're all going to be judged by our deeds.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Well, we're told in no uncertain terms that Cain was of the evil one.

I've done more than one deep study of what the whole Bible says about Cain.

If Cain were doomed to hell just for being born, then why did God take him aside and explain to him that he was in the wrong for being angry and explain to him what acceptance was and tell him that there was a possibility of him being accepted. Why did God warn Cain about sin crouching at the door if God hated Cain and didn't want him to repent.

They all rejected? Surely not.

Perhaps not all, but John 6 does not speak of any who accepted His words about being the Bread of Life, in fact they were disgusted by His words. John 6 says a "crowd" followed him to hear Him speak and were fed. Then it says the disciples went across the sea and Jesus ended up with them across the sea. Then it says the "crowd" who stayed behind followed him yet again. This same crowd rejected His words. I cannot say if it were the whole crowd or not but there is no documentation of any accepting Jesus. They may have later, but that - along with the rich young ruler's future obedience to Christ - is speculation. One can only hope.

Actually we're all going to be judged by our deeds.

But what sends people to hell is that they have never been born again.

 

[kyredneck]

I've done more than one deep study of what the whole Bible says about Cain.

If Cain were doomed to hell just for being born, then why did God take him aside and explain to him that he was in the wrong for being angry and explain to him what acceptance was and tell him that there was a possibility of him being accepted. Why did God warn Cain about sin crouching at the door if God hated Cain and didn't want him to repent.

There's quite the type there if you're willing to dig a little deeper into it:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1528709#post1528709

Perhaps not all, but John 6 does not speak of any who accepted His words about being the Bread of Life, in fact they were disgusted by His words. John 6 says a "crowd" followed him to hear Him speak and were fed. Then it says the disciples went across the sea and Jesus ended up with them across the sea. Then it says the "crowd" who stayed behind followed him yet again. This same crowd rejected His words. I cannot say if it were the whole crowd or not but there is no documentation of any accepting Jesus. They may have later, but that - along with the rich young ruler's future obedience to Christ - is speculation. One can only hope.

Yea, the narrative of Jn 6 reveals that even many of His disciples rejected Him afterwards:

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jn 6

Doesn't mean they spent eternity in hell for it though. If that's the case there's bookoo of freewillers that might be in deep doodoo.

But what sends people to hell is that they have never been born again.

Change that to read: 'But what sends people to hell is that they have never been born from above', and you have my total agreement.

 

[OldRegular]

Which version is correct?

They both are.

That is my understanding!

 

[Scarlett O.]

There's quite the type there if you're willing to dig a little deeper into it:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1528709#post1528709

I will read it.

 

[MB]

Which version is the correct
account of what really happened
at the cross?

A.
Matthew 27
38Then were there two thieves crucified with him,
one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their
heads,
40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and
buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the
Son of God, come down from the cross.
41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the
scribes and elders, said,
42He saved others; himself he cannot save.
If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down
from the cross, and we will believe him.
43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he
will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him,
cast the same in his teeth.

B.
Luke 23
33And when they were come to the place, which is
called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors,
one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not
what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them
derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself,
if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering
him vinegar,
37And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38And a superscription also was written over him in letters
of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise.

Standing in a crowd with so many people saying different things it would be hard indeed to understand what is really being said. I know for myself if I had been there, I'm sure there most likely would have been yet another version. What the thieves said isn't nearly as important as what Christ said. It really isn't salvific one way or another.
I think of it this way Mathew may not have heard all that was said where other disciples did. Who knows if he couldn't stand looking at this most horrible seen and looked away. At any rate all who loved the Lord was suffering from a broken heart and severe greif.
MB

 

[Ebenezer]

To: Trying2DoRigt

Both accounts are correct, as are all four gospels. Each account is supplemental to the other three, and proves that someone smarter than man wrote the Bible, and purposely inserted the gospel accounts in just the right order, so that only those believers that actively read the Bible over and over again, will ever understand it.

Which version is the correct
account of what really happened
at the cross?

A.
Matthew 27
38Then were there two thieves crucified with him,
one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their
heads,
40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and
buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the
Son of God, come down from the cross.
41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the
scribes and elders, said,
42He saved others; himself he cannot save.
If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down
from the cross, and we will believe him.
43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he
will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him,
cast the same in his teeth.

B.
Luke 23
33And when they were come to the place, which is
called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors,
one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not
what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them
derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself,
if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering
him vinegar,
37And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38And a superscription also was written over him in letters
of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise.

 

[saturneptune]

Since the Bible is the Word of God, and in perfect harmony from Genesis to Revelation, the premise of the thread is in error. There is no such thing as "which account is accurate." They are both accurate. I think the most likely idea is the same person being crucified next to Jesus started off angry, but had a change of heart (thanks to the Lord) and was saved. (I wonder if there was a C of C pastor there at the time so he could be baptized)

Also, we all have the same Holy Spirit residing in us, and can all read the Bible, so do not feel the need to go to a book that gives someone's opinion about what happened.

 

[JamesL]

One thing to consider is that the thief was raised in a Jewish family that probably memorized a lot of scripture. I believe the Holy Spirit brought it all back to him after he first mocked Jesus

 

[Trying2DoRight]

Since my very first post on this forum...Thief On The Cross - Debate... that I started...

I see there are several different answers as to trying to answer my original question.

Now I will put forth to you PART 2 of this thread.

In my original question I gave you two different accounts from the bible by two different persons of the same situation and then asked you...

WHICH ONE WAS THE TRUTH.

And I see that in all reality none of you are neither any closer to knowing in all actuality... which one ...

IS THE TRUTH.

At best all any of you could do was to theorize and rationalize and summarize your answer to which at best is an unproven guess.

I shall now stir the pot even more, with this follow up question that is PART TWO of the original question.

That is ...if you believe that one or more of the two thieves that were on the cross with Jesus repented and Jesus told then that...on that day they too would be with him in paradise.

PART 2 QUESTION
How was the thief with Jesus that day in paradise...since Jesus did not ascend into Heaven till after he was in the grave and rose on the third day?

And where is paradise if it is not in heaven?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Since my very ... /// ... not in heaven?

This is my shorthand way of quoting your entire post when I have no intention of addressing the balance of its content. I want to say, your post implies a haughtiness and arrogance in your demeanor that isn't very attractive. You claim " ... none of you are neither any closer to knowing in all actuality ... " as though you and you alone know the answer.

The story only has the details it has. Speculation is part of understanding, yet you seem to want to deny us the privilege of attempting to understand, and you withhold your implied "wisdom" in bumping the thread with additional questions without participating in the discussion, merely choosing to critique it as "inadequate." Sorry, but I don't appreciate being "put in class" without being told that is what it is. If you wanted to instruct, that is what you should have set out to do. However, I think you know, had you done so, the reaction would have been chaotic.

So, for me, I believe I'm done here.

 

[Trying2DoRight]

This is my shorthand way of quoting your entire post when I have no intention of addressing the balance of its content. I want to say, your post implies a haughtiness and arrogance in your demeanor that isn't very attractive. You claim " ... none of you are neither any closer to knowing in all actuality ... " as though you and you alone know the answer.

The story only has the details it has. Speculation is part of understanding, yet you seem to want to deny us the privilege of attempting to understand, and you withhold your implied "wisdom" in bumping the thread with additional questions without participating in the discussion, merely choosing to critique it as "inadequate." Sorry, but I don't appreciate being "put in class" without being told that is what it is. If you wanted to instruct, that is what you should have set out to do. However, I think you know, had you done so, the reaction would have been chaotic.

So, for me, I believe I'm done here.

Thank you for your feedback, it has been greatly appreciated!

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Sure...

How was the thief with Jesus that day in paradise...since Jesus did not ascend into Heaven till after he was in the grave and rose on the third day?

I can tell you the answer to your question as soon as you answer this question: On the calendar in God's office in Heaven, what day is showing as today?

And where is paradise if it is not in heaven?

"Paradise" is not a term normally applied to the Jewish or Christian concept of "Heaven". (It is used twice in the KJV, Paul uses it in 2 Cor 12 as a synonym for Heaven or possibly a region within Heaven (the 3rd Heaven); John the Revelator uses the word in Revelation 2, seemingly as a synonym for Heaven.) It was however, common in several pagan religions and was a term recognized by the thief as a 'good place' to be. Jesus was speaking to the thief in the thief's terms, not giving an impromptu lecture on doctrine. Odd, Jesus seemed to always go out of His way to make sure the listener understood.

So the answer to the paradise question is: In this context, yes, 'paradise' is Heaven.

 

[JamesL]

As I've mentioned in a few other threads - this OP seems bent on stirring up angst, and for everyone on the board to eat out of the palm of his hand.

If everyone here were begging the OP to enlighten us with his infinite wisdom, he would probably say that were are not able to receive it.

IF a position were stated, and exposition given, a statement containing any substance, then an honest dialogue could ensue. This would be much more noble than the ambiguity with which he travels from thread to thread.

But, since the aim appears to be nothing more than to mock, ridicule, pepper with incessant and meaningless questions and vague statements, I am convinced that OP desires only to sow confusion and discord.