5 Ways To Be Unsatisfied With Your Church

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Earth, Wind & Fire



Hello EWF,

At the risk of incurring you wrath starting off the new year....I need to ask you a question....and yet....I will not require an answer, just that you think it through.


Here you suggest taking a year to get to know a church and what they believe and yet in the year that has now past, you seemed to strenuously object when some of the churches wanted you to attend a new members study class....which you said was......"attending their indoctrination".

Have you modified your view since that time? it does not seem as if you can do both does it? This i would suggest is a standard mode of operation not indoctrination. They present to you where they stand.You present what parts you agree on,and where you differ understanding that you are not going to mesh on everything.

You do not have to respond...it was more for thought.

No Ive not modified my views. I dont want to join anything without evaluating it totally.....they wanted you to join & then go thru the process.....thats putting the cart before the horse. IE, just because I have been reborn does NOT mean Im going to rush out & join any church (not without properly examining what they believe, if it feels right, if the Pastor is teaching doctrine & from the bible, etc.)

And if they have the ability to teach me....or do I stay where I am & vegetate?

 

[JonC]

JonC--agreed!

But then I am one of those who view the church as a voluntary organization for the propagation of the gospel.

Not as my family. I have one of those. Not as where I make all my friends. Hard to evangelize that way. Not as my chief means of contact with God or of worshiping Him. The veil was rent and He is available all the time everywhere. Isn't that why real Baptists have no altars?

So if the singing, the praying, and the preaching have ceased effectively propagating the gospel, and if there seems upon broaching that with leadership no propensity to move to doing so, I feel perfectly free to find where God IS working to bring folks to salvation and be a part of that fellowship.

Wish someone would write a post or article on "5 ways to run off your congregation."

I grew up in a church family, so perhaps my perspective and desire to once again return to that environment is no longer attainable. Times change and I have to acknowledge that this “church family” was as perhaps as much the perspective of a younger me (involved in youth activities, etc) as it was a real picture of the local church of my youth. But I do remember a more involved church life than participation at the church building. We shared life together to a degree that is foreign to the contemporary church (in my experience, anyway).

I believe that the Church needs to be active in evangelism. This evangelism (“discipling”) is more than merely presenting the gospel to the lost. Another major function of the church is the edification of believers. Ephesians 4:12 indicates that God has given various gifts to the church in order to prepare God’s people for works of service. Worship is another activity of the church - the praise and exaltation of God, by the children of God. Colossians 3:16, for example, seems to provide a role of the local church beyond mere evangelism. I also believe that Acts 2:42-47 is an example, in principle, for the local church. We exercise the love of Christ among each other and the world. So I disagree that the church is a voluntary organization for the propagation of the gospel and that alone. But I do understand that my desire to belong to a “church family” is perhaps unattainable in today’s culture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent view and it is totally Scriptural, Hebrews 5:11ff. I see one has responded against this biblical view and in doing so is sowing discord. Nothing you said was elitist, it was and is Biblical and full of wisdom. :thumbs:

I totally agree.....well thought out:thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I disagree completely. If one has become so informed and edumacated, then the expectation is that they would mature enough to be responsible for their own growth and development. Furthermore, they could provided leadership and guidance on how their current situation could more appropriately address such issues.

Sounds a lot like, "I have outgrown you, so I am going to take my marbles somewhere else".

Would you put a college level student who has both the faculties to understand the curriculum & has both proven himself capable of performing the work back in high-school with the agenda to help up & coming students? Of course not....rather you feed & train & present more challenging material to the person in order for him to advance. Then if they choose to teach later, you work toward that goal....but thats another project entirely. 1st advance the student to his highest capable level. Maybe you got another Rocket Scientist there or maybe you got another high school math teacher but without allowing the student to advance & challenge & continue to learn, you will never know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

something in the person give an indication...perhaps they cannot read or write...love demands that you make a judgement and seek to meet the need.....you do not judge to put them down, but to be able to supply what they lack.

Here I agree! :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

JonC--agreed!



Wish someone would write a post or article on "5 ways to run off your congregation."

LOL..... yes that would be of deeper interest to me at least. Good one:thumbs:

 

[Revmitchell]

Why leave just because you got some book smarts? Is church only to consume or is to to be able to minister to the body using our gifts?

This is a very good question.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think that spending time with one’s church is linked to the consumer attitude. People pay their money, watch the show and are good until the next week. Of course, perhaps our life-styles often interfere with actually being a church family. I normally do not see anyone from my church except in church (our lives do not typically cross outside of the church building).

Being a true disciple, and serving God in your local congregation faithfully will all lend to being a church family.

 

[Revmitchell]

Wish someone would write a post or article on "5 ways to run off your congregation."

OK well start your thread don't derail this one.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe this would be the time to step up and assist the ministry how ever the ministry needs. We've had numerous men step up and teach great, advanced, college level classes at our church and we're very much the richer for it. Why leave just because you got some book smarts? Is church only to consume or is to to be able to minister to the body using our gifts?

Why did you & your husband leave the PCUSA Church?

 

[preacher4truth]

Why did you & your husband leave the PCUSA Church?

Not everyone in church can or wants to teach.

In a church where the leadership, especially the preaching pastor is teaching shallow doctrine, milk &c and some sheep feel like they aren't getting fed, the answer isn't to go teach a class. Sometimes it is to leave.

Some of the sheep who feel this way cannot do a thing about it as they are not equipped to teach and they can't change what they hear from the pulpit. Some of these are in fact doing things in and for the church, not just in a teaching capacity. There is a time to leave a church, and if it is for shallow preaching, and/or due to weak doctrine then I see that as valid.

I've heard this excuse from preachers for years; 'The reason you aren't getting anything out of my preaching is because you don't study yourself'. Utter nonsense. Sure, at times this may be true, but I don't see any person who is not getting a thing out of it as being this way. Why would they be worried about that? It doesn't seem to be a fitting attitude for a person who doesn't study but of one who does study in my opinion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not everyone in church can or wants to teach.

In a church where the leadership, especially the preaching pastor is teaching shallow doctrine, milk &c and some sheep feel like they aren't getting fed, the answer isn't to go teach a class. Sometimes it is to leave.

Some of the sheep who feel this way cannot do a thing about it as they are not equipped to teach and they can't change what they hear from the pulpit. Some of these are in fact doing things in and for the church, not just in a teaching capacity. There is a time to leave a church, and if it is for shallow preaching, and/or due to weak doctrine then I see that as valid.

I've heard this excuse from preachers for years; 'The reason you aren't getting anything out of my preaching is because you don't study yourself'. Utter nonsense. Sure, at times this may be true, but I don't see any person who is not getting a thing out of it as being this way. Why would they be worried about that? It doesn't seem to be a fitting attitude for a person who doesn't study but of one who does study in my opinion.

Agreed....my point was more basic even than what you just described. Out here, there are lots of RC's so they find there way into most of these mainline churches & they join for maybe a different doctrinal prospective, or perhaps some different prospective & maybe even some emphasis on scripture (that they hadn't received prior to). So they sit there and maybe they grow or maybe they just warm the bench. If God graces them with rebirth, they MUST move on. They aren't being properly fed in most cases & the pastor just doesn't want to stress doctrine, doesn't want to delve deep into salvation theology blah blah. Therefore they are forced to seek enlightenment elsewhere. Thats where Baptists come in. We are a peculiar people full of the HS & hopefully deeper thought theologically. I believe it is the job of the church to provide that deeper understanding & further I believe its the job of the student to seek it out.....not only by the pastor & staff, but independent study.

And your right, not everyone can teach or wants to teach....some feel the real need to learn (to drink deep at the well) & so they must move on. Its that simple.

 

[nodak]

When a church focuses on the propagation of the gospel, it will be effective both at evangelism and at discipleship. Both are part of the propagation of the gospel. It isn't either/or but both/and.

As far as the church being a family? Or for corporate worship?

There I respectfully part company. It isn't there to fill our social needs, and I believe becomes unhealthy when that becomes the focus. Youth groups should not take the place of the family in the life of the youth. And when it comes to adults, healthy ones are able to make friends outside the church as well as within it. My personal experience has been this focus on being a social bonding group has led down hill, away from preaching sin and salvation from hell and into the idea we cannot say anything of substance because it might offend.

As to corporate worship, what I disagree with is the idea we somehow are not really "with" God unless we are with a group of people also "with" God and with some sort of priest leading. With the right music and ego stroking talk and mood lighting, etc, folks can have a "wonderful experience" of "worship" without ever encountering Christ. So I am cautious there also.

But then I don't see the job of Christians as being forming and growing healthy churches. Rather, I see healthy churches as having the job of forming and growing healthy Christian individuals, which will form healthy families and be healthy citizens.

Or to put it simply, Christians don't exist to make churches, churches exist to make Christians.

All of this, of course, to be under the rule of Christ and used as God so desires.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

When a church focuses on the propagation of the gospel, it will be effective both at evangelism and at discipleship. Both are part of the propagation of the gospel. It isn't either/or but both/and.

As far as the church being a family? Or for corporate worship?

There I respectfully part company. It isn't there to fill our social needs, and I believe becomes unhealthy when that becomes the focus. Youth groups should not take the place of the family in the life of the youth. And when it comes to adults, healthy ones are able to make friends outside the church as well as within it. My personal experience has been this focus on being a social bonding group has led down hill, away from preaching sin and salvation from hell and into the idea we cannot say anything of substance because it might offend.

As to corporate worship, what I disagree with is the idea we somehow are not really "with" God unless we are with a group of people also "with" God and with some sort of priest leading. With the right music and ego stroking talk and mood lighting, etc, folks can have a "wonderful experience" of "worship" without ever encountering Christ. So I am cautious there also.

But then I don't see the job of Christians as being forming and growing healthy churches. Rather, I see healthy churches as having the job of forming and growing healthy Christian individuals, which will form healthy families and be healthy citizens.

Or to put it simply, Christians don't exist to make churches, churches exist to make Christians.

All of this, of course, to be under the rule of Christ and used as God so desires.

:laugh: Holy Cow Nodak.......your on to something :applause:

 

[quantumfaith]

Not everyone in church can or wants to teach.

In a church where the leadership, especially the preaching pastor is teaching shallow doctrine, milk &c and some sheep feel like they aren't getting fed, the answer isn't to go teach a class. Sometimes it is to leave.

Some of the sheep who feel this way cannot do a thing about it as they are not equipped to teach and they can't change what they hear from the pulpit. Some of these are in fact doing things in and for the church, not just in a teaching capacity. There is a time to leave a church, and if it is for shallow preaching, and/or due to weak doctrine then I see that as valid.

I've heard this excuse from preachers for years; 'The reason you aren't getting anything out of my preaching is because you don't study yourself'. Utter nonsense. Sure, at times this may be true, but I don't see any person who is not getting a thing out of it as being this way. Why would they be worried about that? It doesn't seem to be a fitting attitude for a person who doesn't study but of one who does study in my opinion.

"Utter nonsense......Sure sometimes this is true" An utter logical contradiction.

 

[annsni]

Why did you & your husband leave the PCUSA Church?

It was a series of events that led us to leave. A few of them:

* The pastor was not a good teacher/preacher. His sermons were more feel good sermons and we were not comfortable with that.

* The elder men who had been there when we first got there who did a lot of teaching (a few Bible scholars) had died or left and there were no men who were qualified to replace them.

* My husband was a musician and they had hired a woman on to be the music director and play the organ who couldn't play the organ at all. Literally, my husband had to walk out because the lack of ability to play detracted from his ability to worship - it was horrible.

* The youth, who had at one time been a vital part of the church were no longer and even the pastor's own children were walking away from the faith at a young age. It was discouraging.

* The congregation was shrinking and getting much older. They were set in their ways and didn't want to change anything. Literally, we went back for a funeral 15 years after we left and the same drapes that they were arguing over changing were still on the walls, stains and all (someone had donated money to replace them but they could never agree on what to get).

* But the final straw was that my husband felt God's calling to leave. We really stuck it out and worked through all the difficulty and both of us were in ministry (hubby was an Elder from the time he was 26 years old and led worship during special evening services and I taught Sunday school). I see now God's plan because if we had stayed there, hubby would never have become a pastor. But I thank God for our years in that church and it was in that church when we were still dating that I saw my husband do the Scripture reading in the service and I knew - I just knew in my heart - he'd be a pastor someday.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was a series of events that led us to leave. A few of them:

* The pastor was not a good teacher/preacher. His sermons were more feel good sermons and we were not comfortable with that.

* The elder men who had been there when we first got there who did a lot of teaching (a few Bible scholars) had died or left and there were no men who were qualified to replace them.

* My husband was a musician and they had hired a woman on to be the music director and play the organ who couldn't play the organ at all. Literally, my husband had to walk out because the lack of ability to play detracted from his ability to worship - it was horrible.

* The youth, who had at one time been a vital part of the church were no longer and even the pastor's own children were walking away from the faith at a young age. It was discouraging.

* The congregation was shrinking and getting much older. They were set in their ways and didn't want to change anything. Literally, we went back for a funeral 15 years after we left and the same drapes that they were arguing over changing were still on the walls, stains and all (someone had donated money to replace them but they could never agree on what to get).

* But the final straw was that my husband felt God's calling to leave. We really stuck it out and worked through all the difficulty and both of us were in ministry (hubby was an Elder from the time he was 26 years old and led worship during special evening services and I taught Sunday school). I see now God's plan because if we had stayed there, hubby would never have become a pastor. But I thank God for our years in that church and it was in that church when we were still dating that I saw my husband do the Scripture reading in the service and I knew - I just knew in my heart - he'd be a pastor someday.

So there you go.....the church no longer fit....IE was no longer feeding you. And that is quite natural & you did the only thing you could do.

 

[evangelist6589]

1. Don’t participate, merely consume.

2. Criticize your leadership.

3.Don’t spend time with your church outside of the church building.

4. Believe that everything should be about you and for you, all the time.

5. Be unhappy with the fact that it isn’t perfect.

http://www.shaneblackshear.com/5-ways-to-be-unsatisfied-with-your-church/

This is often used as an EXCUSE to justify false teachings. No church is perfect but there are Biblical Churches, and there are churches that DO NOT preach the gospel.

Areas of compromise are secondary. For example if I were in a good church with solid teaching, but they had few activities for adults I would be upset, but it would be am area of compromise. Other areas are the bible translation issue, the location, the music, the food, among other things.

 

[evangelist6589]

I would add when a person has outgrown the ministry of that assembly.

For instance: Often those who have gone to higher education training - in particular that which is offered by good Biblical universities - the person no longer can be sustained upon the milk of the word. They need meat in which another church may bring to the plate.

In that case, it is well and good that the person seek an assembly in which they may continue to grow.

This is in no way being critical of the other church, but practicing discernment of the spiritual needs of that person and even that person's family.

Some might suggest the person should stay and enhance the level of teaching in that assembly.

Unfortunately, when leadership is feeding milk to the assembly as a constant diet, the above suggestion doesn't work that way. Eventually, there will be a disagreement, there will be unity of one camp in contrast to another camp, and there will be a destruction of harmony.

The wise student of Scriptures will seek that area in which they may grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Scriptures - the meat - not the milk.

I agree with this. I have been in churches that only fed milk and I needed meat. And I have been in churches where the teaching and preaching was very meaty and the pastor would often quote books, do deep exegesis, and such. However I was dissatisfied with the lack of social activities, but no church is perfect and thinking back I should have taken the meat over the social activities when I switched churches.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sounds good. Unfortunately some do not want others teaching. There are modern day Diotrephes in some pulpits so it's not always that simple.

Exactly what we see on BB sometimes....:thumbsup: