Featured The Archilles heel of Arminianism - Jn. 6:64-65

Jn. 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Here is absolute proof that "some" are not drawn by the Father and therefore the "all" in John 12:32 does not mean "all without exception" but rather is the same "all" in John 6:45a or the same "all" that are given by the Father to come to Christ by faith (Jn. 6:37-39).

No objective interpreter can possibly deny with a straight face that Jesus is giving verse 65 as His explanation why "some" among his disciples in verse 64 did not believe in him and never did "from the beginning." These "some" had never been drawn by the Father and therefore never came to Christ in true faith, and thus their confession and baptism even though EXTERNALLY correct as to word content and baptismal expression was not, and never was the true expression of their hearts.

Hence, correct external conformation by words and actions do not save anyone, but true saving faith must be "given" in connection with supernatural work of God in the heart.

 

You are attempting to derail the thread and that is against the rules of BB. The OP is about Jn. 6:64-65. This OP is not about regeneration. If you want to discuss this passage then open a thread about it and I will comply.

John 12:42 provides NOTHING contextually to contradict anything I have said. I can interpret within the framework I have provided. However, you have already conceded TWICE in previous posts that "all" in John 12:32 does not mean all without exception and that contextually it is directly related to and a response from certain Greeks seeking Christ as the context will show.

 

I believe John 6:44 declares that the he drawn is the he raised and the he raised is "all" in John 6:45 that is taught = drawn by God. Hence, I disagree with your opinion.

However, this OP is about John 6:64-65 which provides indisputable proof that "some" who professed the right gospel, submitted to the right baptism and were called "disciples' had never been drawn by the Father. Moreover, this is the "all" of the Covenant people of grace in Isa. 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 or that covenant described in Hebrew 8 and 10 which includes all the elect or "all" those given by the Father to come by faith to the Son - Jn. 6:37-39.

Therefore, the Arminian doctrine that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception is proven false as here are "some" who had the correct profession, correct baptism but HAD NEVER truly believed with the heart BECAUSE they had never been drawn by the Father and thus never "heard" and "taught" in the sense described in John 6:45.

 

You need to read more carefully.

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said to them, Does this offend you?
62 What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that vivifies; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I to you, that no man can come to me, except it were given to him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

1. First "disciples" plural not singular as you suggest

2. Second, the "you" represents a PLURAL pronoun rather than singular as you suggest.

3. "THEY" plural believed not, rather than just singular "who" as you suggest.

4. "MANY of his disciples" instead of just one as you suggest

Judus is merely INCLUDED in the "they" and "many" and plural "you."

 

Your answer is always PITTING scripture against scripture rather than harmonizing Scripture. That is your only answer because you cannot harmonize them as they contradict your position. John 12:32 is the later text which is to be interpreted by the earlier exposition of Christ in John 6 but you reverse it and must because your position contradicts the earlier exposition.

Again, you pick and choose. Jesus goes on to further qualify that "fear" was due to because they LOVED THE GLORY OF MEN and not the glory of God which defines their motive underlying their profession - false profession just as those in John 6:64 was false profession.

John 6:64 makes this interpretation IMPOSSIBLE as your intepretation of John 12:32 not only ignores the immediate context (vv. 21-24) but directly contradicts John 6;64. Like all false doctrine your doctrine is derived by pitting scripture against scripture rather than harmonozing it.

No, "all" that is given by the Father to the Son "shall" come to Christ so that 100% given is 100% saved with 0% lost "lose nothing." Hence, those in John 6:64 were NEVER GIVEN by the Father.

NONE come to the Son in the sense of true profession that are not first given to the Son and so "all" who come were "of all" who were given - period!

Furthermore, since NONE come who were not first "given" and "ALL" given do in fact come then all drawn by the Father include only "ALL" given by the Father and those in John 6:64 were neither drawn or given by the Father.

 

Note the contextual development in these verses. They are first exposed to light and the natural response to light by the fallen nature is resistance as described. The same response is noted by Christ in John 3:19-20. The only exception to this response in fallen man to light is attributed to the work of God (John 3:21) rather than to man.

All fallen men naturally reject light whether it is the light of conscience, the light of nature, the light of special written revelation or the light of God in the incarnate person of Christ or the light of the gospel. The hardening process begins whenever the lost man is exposed to any kind of light. These same men had already been hardened in many other areas just as like you and I were hardened in many other areas even before we were exposed to the gospel. We were hardening in response to our own conscience from the time we could discern conscience in many different areas of our life. False religion is just another expression of hardening. These same persons had already hardened by resisting the truth of God's word and perverting it into false Judaism such as the doctrines of the Sadducees and Pharisees and Essenes.

Therefore, hardening is not a special select few Jews or merely restricted to the nation of Israel but is the NORMAL reaction of the fallen nature when exposed to light apart from the quickening power of God.

 

Back on track with the OP! John 6:64-65 identifies "some" who were NEVER DRAWN by the Father but yet must have made a correct profession and must have submitted to baptism as that is the only way Christ would claim them as "his disciples."

This specific example, repudiates the interpretation of John 12:32 that "all" refers to all mankind without exception as John 6:64-65 is a clear exception. Moreover, John 12:32 is in context, and is in direct response to "Greeks" who were wishing to see him and thus the term "all" in John 12:32 means "all mankind without distinction of race, gender or status" and refers to the same "all" in John 6:37-39; 45a.

Moreover, God does not draw any other persons but "all" who are given to the Son TO COME to Him as to "draw" equals "come" rather than the false idea that "draw" conveys or transferrs ability to POTENTIALLY come to him. Hence, "he" that is drawn IS "he" that is raised in John 6:44. Hence, "he" that is drawn is "all" that are actually taught by God in John 6:45a. Hence, EVERY MAN that is taught (heard, learned) does in fact come to Christ - Jn. 6:45b as only those NEVER drawn (Jn. 6:64-65) are the only ones who NEVER come to Christ in true saving faith.

 

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Let the reader judge for themselves if "some" is not found in John 6 in the precise text I said it was (v. 64) which denies they were DRAWN by the Father (v. 65).

 

Yes, the normal response of the fallen nature is to resist light (Jn. 3:19-20):

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Note that Jesus did not say "Israel" or "jews" but "men loved darkness." This is the normal response of the fallen nature. Remember, Jesus had been speaking about "the world" (all mankind without distinction of race, gender or class) rather than Israel or Jews.

The generation Jesus is facing is a generation that already had been hardened toward the truth and this hardening can be seen in its religious classes (Pharisees, Sadducees) by their acceptance of false doctrine, a false gospel that made their disciples twofold more children of hell than they were because now they think they are God's children when they are still Satan's children whereas, before they knew they were lost. Hardening takes form in false profession, false doctrine, and now in resisting the incarnation of light - Jesus Christ which is the epitomy of hardening in the ultimate degree as Christ actually lived and walked among them and yet they rejected him due to their own depraved fallen condition.

When fallen men come to the light the credit is given wholly to God alone:

Jn. 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Greek preposition "hoti" is translated "that" and means "because" providing the reason for those who come to the light. The prepositional phrase "in God" defines the sphere of this activity that it is "IN God" as "IN Christ" not OUTSIDE of union with God as Arminians demand. This person has been brought into spiritual union with God thus "IN God" and that is why they come to the light.