Featured The Archilles heel of Arminianism - Jn. 6:64-65

The main problem is that he filters alls criptures thru the false teachings of his false prophetess, as her understanding trumps all else!

 

if anyone should have evidence being drawn/called by God to Jesus was Judas, yet he is the perfect example of how natural man receives NOT the things of god, that NONE seek God, not can call jesus their Lord, apart from God providing and granting them the means to do so!
NOT bult into human being instrinsically!

 

To Brother Skan:

I mean this as it is typed, with no "alterior motive". I really appreciate the way you conduct yourself on here. Though we may now butt heads now and again, I love the gracious way you present your thoughts. It seems like nothing ever rattles you, but you, being a human, I am quite sure there are some things that eat at you, like the rest of us. But I wanted to let you know that I truly appreciate you as a Brother in Christ and the manner of how you conduct yourself. May He richly and abundantly bless you and your family. :thumbsup: :godisgood: :jesus: :love2:

 

Nice:smilewinkgrin:

 

In John 6 - Christ is not blaming God for the result - He is blaming the refusal of sinful man that is drawn but then is foreknown to refuse anyway.

Given is always in the context of "foreknowledge" in John 6. Whether given to Christ - or "Given to the lost".

In the spirit of "accuracy" - BobRyan has consistently claimed that everyone in John 6 "and that all mankind" have been drawn.

I have consistently denied that anyone was not drawn -- in my repeated "I will draw ALL mankind unto ME" quotes of John 12:32.

So I am a bit mystified that you would post that I have denied that someone in John 6:65 had not been drawn.

In the text you quote I have consistently left the door open that "Given to HIM" (the lost person that is drawn by the Father" could simply be another way to state the same thing "drawn" - that no one can come to God apart from the drawing "of all mankind".

But vs 65 is in the context of foreknowledge stated in vs 64.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father

Vs 65 is in the context of the foreknowledge of what they would not.

Vs 64 does not say "Jesus knew from the beginning who it is that the Father would refuse to DRAW unto Christ". The knowledge of the future event -- is purely the knowledge of who would accept and who would not.

Thus the "given" of vs 65 is in the context of the "foreknowledge" of what THEY would do - never stated as the foreknowledge of "What God would not DRAW".

The statement "no one CAN come to me" refers again to the sinful nature of man -

Christ attributes the fact that no one can come without the drawing of God - to the inclination and sinful state of man. And the "given of the Father" is always in terms of foreknowledge of the choices of man in John 6.

They statement "they did not come to Christ because they were not drawn" is found only in Calvinism not in the text.

Even in vs 65 Christ did not say "they do not come to Me because the Father has not given them to Me".

There is another possibility - rather than being synonyms it could be that it is a progression. All must be drawn because all have a sinful nature - among those drawn some will not choose to accept eternal life because they freely choose to yield to that same sinful bent toward evil as we see in vs 64 and the statement about foreknowledge. Thus the "given" of vs 65 can well be the result of "all drawn plus foreknowledge of God" about the future choices of man (vs 64). It is an appeal to vs 44 in the context of vs 64. This means that once again - Christ is not blaming God for the result - He is blaming the refusal of sinful man that is drawn but then is foreknown to refuse anyway.

Just when it may be supposed that Christ is blaming the Father for the result (as if - he has this result because the Father failed to draw and then to Give someone the ability to come to Christ) - Christ may well be blaming the result on the person that is yielding to the same sinful nature that predicts that without the supernatural drawing - no man will choose life and light.



The words "therefore I said unto you" shows clearly that this is Christ's explanation for why those in verse 64 "believe not" - because of their bent away from righteousness which they yield to in spite of the "Drawing of ALL mankind". The bend that all mankind has in vs 44 and the bent that these men specifically are foreknown to clinging to in vs 64 despite the "Drawing of all".

"Drawing all" enables "all to come to Christ" according to vs 44 - and John 12:32. But out of that number those who Do choose to come are those who are not only drawn - but also CHOOSE to respond positively to that drawing.

So that is "Drawing PLUS the choice to respond".

Hence no text says "all drawn to Me WILL come to Me".

It is incredibly obvious to all on this board that you cannot blame the fact that the Bible does not agree with the Calvinist assumptions "on Ellen White" and further you cannot claim that the Arminian position arises only after God gives prophetic messages to Ellen White. Certainly all the Arminians will admit this if not (as in your case) all Calvinists. You need an actual Bible argument - ranting is not a substantive response.

in Christ,

Bob

 

ANY so called prophecies Ellen white received were from satan, not Jesus, but would also say that the foreknowledge of God in salvation NOT merely him knowing what will haapen with the sinner in their future, but that He determined to save the sinner, and so his foreknowledge based upon His will to save that sinner thru and by death of jesus, not on basis of him seeing sinner 'coming to Christ!"

 

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

In vs 64 the foreknowledge of God is stated as being in reference to the choices of the "all mankind" that is drawn by God.

Vs 64 does not say "Jesus knew from the beginning who it is that the Father would refuse to DRAW unto Christ". The knowledge of the future event -- is purely the knowledge of who would accept and who would not.

Here is where the Calvinist argument finds a problem in John 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Father was NOT drawing , bringing Judas to jesus to get saved, as he was a Devil from the beginning, and God deyermined to use him and his "free choice" to have OT prophecies fulfilled!