MARY THE MOTHER of GOD

[Jerome]

Dr. Timothy George of the Southern Baptist 'Founders' faction:

Evangelicals and the Mother of God

The third title of Mary to consider is Theotokos, the “God-Bearer,” a title for Mary as the Mother of God. Evangelicals can and should join Catholics in celebrating the Virgin Mary this way.

 

[Walter]

Dr. Timothy George of the Southern Baptist 'Founders' faction:

Evangelicals and the Mother of God

I think the title 'Theotokos' or 'God bearer' is one that evangelicals find less objectionable. Mother of God seems objectionable to many evangelicals because they believe it is an attempt to elevate the Blessed Virgin's status. The title was meant to clear up who Jesus was and not who Mary was.

From Irenaeus, "The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189])

From Peter of Alexandira, "They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandia [A.D. 305])

 

[Revmitchell]

I think the title 'Theotokos' or 'God bearer' is one that evangelicals find less objectionable. Mother of God seems objectionable to many evangelicals because they believe it is an attempt to elevate the Blessed Virgin's status. The title was meant to clear up who Jesus was and not who Mary was.

Well I can tell you that I have talked with Catholics who see it far differently. They do lift up Mary, carry her statue with a glass cover every where they go, and pray to the statue regularly. I can assure you there are far to many Catholics who see it far, far different than what you have stated here.

 

[Walter]

Well I can tell you that I have talked with Catholics who see it far differently. They do lift up Mary, carry her statue with a glass cover every where they go, and pray to the statue regularly. I can assure you there are far to many Catholics who see it far, far different than what you have stated here.

Well, one Catholic who practices what you say would be too many, although I see nothing wrong with processions. There are also Baptists that practice wicca (my next door neighbors), read tarot cards, etc. Catholics are instructed NOT to pray TO statues so unless a Catholic has told you personally they pray TO a statue I think you are assuming they do. That's OK, Rev., I made the same assumptions when I was a Baptist and before I began to study what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, one Catholic who practices what you say would be too many, although I see nothing wrong with processions. There are also Baptists that practice wicca (my next door neighbors), read tarot cards, etc. Catholics are instructed NOT to pray TO statues so unless a Catholic has told you personally they pray TO a statue I think you are assuming they do. That's OK, Rev., I made the same assumptions when I was a Baptist and before I began to study what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes.

So let me get this straight. You believe someone who calls themselves a Baptist and practices wicca is the same thing as a Catholic who worships Mary and calls her the mother of God? Really?


Tell you what go on over to the Catholics forum and see what you find there on this issue. Some of them seems to believe the church teaches quite the opposite of what you are claiming here.


What you say the church teaches and what other Catholics believe the church teaches about Mary are two different things.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think the title 'Theotokos' or 'God bearer' is one that evangelicals find less objectionable. Mother of God seems objectionable to many evangelicals because they believe it is an attempt to elevate the Blessed Virgin's status. The title was meant to clear up who Jesus was and not who Mary was.

When all the extra-biblical doctrines about Mary are considered together, there can be no possible way that the status of Mary is not elevated above all other human beings placing her even above angels. To demand she was born without sin and lived without sin, did not have other children, and is the co-matrix with Christ and a co-meditor to whom prayer is made places her on a level of Jesus Christ himself and then to add the term "theotokos" to describe her raises her level to the Person of Christ even on the divine level.

Nowhere, does the scripture teach she was ever born or lived without sin but her own testimony repudiates such a teaching ("my redeemer") and nowhere does the New Testament Greek New Testament ever says she is the "theotokos" or should be regarded as such.

The proof is in the pudding, and all the Catholics I know personally and observe treat Mary on the same level of diety with their actions and words regardless of the theological mental gynastics used by Catholic theologions to deny the obvious.

 

[Walter]

So let me get this straight. You believe someone who calls themselves a Baptist and practices wicca is the same thing as a Catholic who worships Mary and calls her the mother of God? Really?


Tell you what go on over to the Catholics forum and see what you find there on this issue. Some of them seems to believe the church teaches quite the opposite of what you are claiming here.


What you say the church teaches and what other Catholics believe the church teaches about Mary are two different things.

I DO participate on Catholic forums and I don't find what you are claiming but just the opposite. Not on the forums I participate on. I would post links to them but I don't think that would be appreciated by the moderators of BB. I suggest you spend some time on those forums before you make these false claims.

I have posted EXACTLY what the Church teaches about Mary and your claims to the contrary cannot be supported.

 

[DHK]

Well, one Catholic who practices what you say would be too many, although I see nothing wrong with processions. There are also Baptists that practice wicca (my next door neighbors), read tarot cards, etc. Catholics are instructed NOT to pray TO statues so unless a Catholic has told you personally they pray TO a statue I think you are assuming they do. That's OK, Rev., I made the same assumptions when I was a Baptist and before I began to study what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes.

You are mistaken.
Catholics are instructed to stand (or kneel) before the stations of the cross and there pray. That is idolatry according to the Ten Commandments. You can look it up in Exodus 20.

Catholics do pray to Mary (as well as other "saints"). That is idolatry. Prayer is worship due only to God. It is robbing God of the worship, praise, adoration, veneration, that is due only to him and him alone.
The Bible says that God is a jealous God, and he will not allow another to rob him of his glory. Praying to Mary does just that. Therefore it is a terrible sin that all Catholics will be held accountable for.

 

[evangelist-7]

To demand she was born without sin and lived without sin, did not have other children, and is the co-matrix with Christ and a co-meditor to whom prayer is made places her on a level of Jesus Christ himself and then to add the term "theotokos" to describe her raises her level to the Person of Christ even on the divine level.

Just another example of how believers can be deceived when they blindly follow church doctrines.
Baptists have their own failings and problems in other areas.

Personally, my denomination is SAHS, which doesn't present problems to be overcome.
.

 

[OldRegular]

First allow me to remind you that your grammar is bad. You need to say, "No woman is . . . ." or if you really mean multiple female humans you should say, "No women are . . . ."

Second, do you know what a syllogism is? Let me try one out on you.

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

Of course if you don't believe in the Holy Trinity, then it would be easy to conclude that Mary is not the mother of God.

Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

Syllogism: an extremely subtle, sophisticated, or deceptive argument.

I believe in the Holy Trinity but that has nothing to do with Mary bring the mother of God. God the Father, God the Son or Word, and God the Holy Spirit, has no mother. Mary is the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ, the seed promised in the garden, but she is not the mother of God. Your use of syllogism as the argument that Mary is the mother of God is indeed appropriately deceptive.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, one Catholic who practices what you say would be too many, although I see nothing wrong with processions. There are also Baptists that practice wicca (my next door neighbors), read tarot cards, etc. Catholics are instructed NOT to pray TO statues so unless a Catholic has told you personally they pray TO a statue I think you are assuming they do. That's OK, Rev., I made the same assumptions when I was a Baptist and before I began to study what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes.

You really should know that it is not the Catholic Church but the Roman Catholic Church or perhaps more appropriately the Church of Rome. Catholic means universal and the Church of Rome is not universal.

 

[OldRegular]

Dr. Timothy George of the Southern Baptist 'Founders' faction:

Evangelicals and the Mother of God

Timmy is simply wrong!

 

[OldRegular]

If Jesus of Nazareth was not God Incarnate from the moment of his conception, exactly when did he become God Incarnate?

I don't believe Scripture indicates but possibly from conception. However, whenever the baby Mary carried took on the nature of God Mary is not the mother of God. Tell me and others on this forum. What is a mother in the sense used in reference to the birth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Zenas]

Syllogism it is.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to speak.
Therefore, Mary taught God to walk.
Therefore, Mary taught God to eat politely.
Therefore, Mary taught God to read.
Therefore, Mary taught God His name.

Joseph was head of his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the head of God.

Joseph was to protect his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the protector of God.

Joseph was stronger than the children in his family
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph was stronger than God.

The blasphemy with this line of syllogism is endless. I am surprised that people stop at just a few of them (like co-redemptrix and mother of God) once they choose such a short-sighted path.

The "excuse" to do it is that "people will not believe in the Trinity if we do not ADD these blasphemous titles to the text" as "if" the Bible texts that speak to the divinity of Christ "are not enough" and we must add man-made ideas to it - so people will believe in the triune Godhead of the Bible.

=====

So it is "instructive" that the Bible does not use even ONE of those titles for Mary or for Joseph.

in Christ,

Bob

Your first syllogism is correct. However, as I read through the others something seemed wrong but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. This evening I read a little philosophy (not really my favorite stuff) and now I know what it is. Your last three attempts at using logic to produce an absurdity are flawed with what is known as the "fallacy of four terms." However, I will give you credit for your ingenuity, if not for your correct use of logic.

I'm not sure what "title" you're referring to other than "Mother of God" and so what if the Bible doesn't use it? The Bible doesn't use "Rock of Ages" either but we do.

 

[OldRegular]

Syllogism it is.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to speak.
Therefore, Mary taught God to walk.
Therefore, Mary taught God to eat politely.
Therefore, Mary taught God to read.
Therefore, Mary taught God His name.

Joseph was head of his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the head of God.

Joseph was to protect his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the protector of God.

Joseph was stronger than the children in his family
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph was stronger than God.

The blasphemy with this line of syllogism is endless. I am surprised that people stop at just a few of them (like co-redemptrix and mother of God) once they choose such a short-sighted path.

The "excuse" to do it is that "people will not believe in the Trinity if we do not ADD these blasphemous titles to the text" as "if" the Bible texts that speak to the divinity of Christ "are not enough" and we must add man-made ideas to it - so people will believe in the triune Godhead of the Bible.

=====

So it is "instructive" that the Bible does not use even ONE of those titles for Mary or for Joseph.

in Christ,

Bob

Ryan your use of syllogism is appropriate to show the fallacy of the RCC argument given that syllogism means: an extremely subtle, sophisticated, or deceptive argument.

 

[OldRegular]

Mother of God? No. Mother of Jesus? Yes. Mary was the earthly vessel used to incarnate God into this world. She is the mother of the 100% human aspect of Jesus. She is not the mother of the 100% God aspect of Jesus.

Jesus, in a form we can't fully comprehend was 100% God and 100% man. Therefore He was both eternal and conceived of God in Mary. It's a duality that we can't comprehend fully, and can only explain with analogies that fall short of truth.

Short answer; Mary was the mother of Jesus, but not God.

Very well said!

 

[OldRegular]

The Bible doesn't use "Rock of Ages" either but we do.

It really does if you do a little word study.

Isaiah 26:4. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

 

[Zenas]

Syllogism: an extremely subtle, sophisticated, or deceptive argument.

I believe in the Holy Trinity but that has nothing to do with Mary bring the mother of God. God the Father, God the Son or Word, and God the Holy Spirit, has no mother. Mary is the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ, the seed promised in the garden, but she is not the mother of God. Your use of syllogism as the argument that Mary is the mother of God is indeed appropriately deceptive.

Nothing deceptive about it, OR. And it’s not MY use, it’s the Council of Ephesus. See Post No. 9, supra. “Mother of God” is not a title that Mary acquired of late. She has been called that from time immemorial. However, it is of late that men have rejected the wisdom of the ages and taken up their own fallible and misguided interpretation of scripture, thinking they are smarter and/or more spiritual than all those who came before them.

 

[Zenas]

It really does if you do a little word study.

Isaiah 26:4. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

"Everlasting strength" = "Rock of Ages"? Come on OR, you can do better than that. I can do better than that. There are lots of passages from which you can infer that God is the Rock of Ages but you can't find that term in the Bible.

 

[saturneptune]

I DO participate on Catholic forums and I don't find what you are claiming but just the opposite. Not on the forums I participate on. I would post links to them but I don't think that would be appreciated by the moderators of BB. I suggest you spend some time on those forums before you make these false claims.

I have posted EXACTLY what the Church teaches about Mary and your claims to the contrary cannot be supported.

Why would there be any teaching about Mary? She is just another human being who God used in a mighty way. In no way did that change her status of being a sinful human being in need of a savior. Maybe her status is upgraded towards angelic status so she can make all the appearances she does. It is quite a busy schedule.

As far as the Catholic forums, there is no doubt the moderators of this board have given a great amount of latitude in allowing theological viewpoints from alien denominations. If we as Baptists went to your forums and stated our views, we would not last longer than a few posts.