MARY THE MOTHER of GOD

[saturneptune]

No women is the mother of God. God has no mother. God has no father. God was not conceived by a mother and father, nor was God ever birthed!

Where did you get that costume?

 

[Revmitchell]

I suggest you spend some time on those forums before you make these false claims.

I have not posted any false claims. Anyway take a look at this mess




http://www.catholic.org/mary/#otchurch

 

[Revmitchell]

Here is some more Catholic mess

Mary has always been present in the hearts, the piety and above all the pilgrimage of faith of the Christian people. “The Church journeys through time… and on this journey she proceeds along the path already trodden by the Virgin Mary” (Redemptoris Mater, 2). Our journey of faith is the same as that of Mary, and so we feel that she is particularly close to us. As far as faith, the hinge of the Christian life, is concerned, the Mother of God shared our condition. She had to take the same path as ourselves, a path which is sometimes difficult and obscure. She had to advance in the “pilgrimage of faith” (Lumen gentium, 58).

Our pilgrimage of faith has been inseparably linked to Mary ever since Jesus, dying on the Cross, gave her to us as our Mother, saying: “Behold your Mother!” (Jn 19:27). These words serve as a testament, bequeathing to the world a Mother. From that moment on, the Mother of God also became our Mother! When the faith of the disciples was most tested by difficulties and uncertainties, Jesus entrusted them to Mary, who was the first to believe, and whose faith would never fail. The “woman” became our Mother when she lost her divine Son. Her sorrowing heart was enlarged to make room for all men and women, all, whether good or bad, and she loves them as she loved Jesus. The woman who at the wedding at Cana in Galilee gave her faith-filled cooperation so that the wonders of God could be displayed in the world, at Calvary kept alive the flame of faith in the resurrection of her Son, and she communicates this with maternal affection to each and every person. Mary becomes in this way a source of hope and true joy!
The Mother of the Redeemer goes before us and continually strengthens us in faith, in our vocation and in our mission. By her example of humility and openness to God’s will she helps us to transmit our faith in a joyful proclamation of the Gospel to all, without reservation. In this way our mission will be fruitful, because it is modeled on the motherhood of Mary. To her let us entrust our journey of faith, the desires of our heart, our needs and the needs of the whole world, especially of those who hunger and thirst for justice and peace, and for God. Let us then together invoke her, and I invite you to invoke her three times, following the example of those brothers and sisters of Ephesus: Mother of God! Mother of God! Mother of God! Amen.

 

[Zenas]

Here is some more Catholic mess

Mary has always been present in the hearts, the piety and above all the pilgrimage of faith of the Christian people. “The Church journeys through time… and on this journey she proceeds along the path already trodden by the Virgin Mary” (Redemptoris Mater, 2). Our journey of faith is the same as that of Mary, and so we feel that she is particularly close to us. As far as faith, the hinge of the Christian life, is concerned, the Mother of God shared our condition. She had to take the same path as ourselves, a path which is sometimes difficult and obscure. She had to advance in the “pilgrimage of faith” (Lumen gentium, 58).

Our pilgrimage of faith has been inseparably linked to Mary ever since Jesus, dying on the Cross, gave her to us as our Mother, saying: “Behold your Mother!” (Jn 19:27). These words serve as a testament, bequeathing to the world a Mother. From that moment on, the Mother of God also became our Mother! When the faith of the disciples was most tested by difficulties and uncertainties, Jesus entrusted them to Mary, who was the first to believe, and whose faith would never fail. The “woman” became our Mother when she lost her divine Son. Her sorrowing heart was enlarged to make room for all men and women, all, whether good or bad, and she loves them as she loved Jesus. The woman who at the wedding at Cana in Galilee gave her faith-filled cooperation so that the wonders of God could be displayed in the world, at Calvary kept alive the flame of faith in the resurrection of her Son, and she communicates this with maternal affection to each and every person. Mary becomes in this way a source of hope and true joy!
The Mother of the Redeemer goes before us and continually strengthens us in faith, in our vocation and in our mission. By her example of humility and openness to God’s will she helps us to transmit our faith in a joyful proclamation of the Gospel to all, without reservation. In this way our mission will be fruitful, because it is modeled on the motherhood of Mary. To her let us entrust our journey of faith, the desires of our heart, our needs and the needs of the whole world, especially of those who hunger and thirst for justice and peace, and for God. Let us then together invoke her, and I invite you to invoke her three times, following the example of those brothers and sisters of Ephesus: Mother of God! Mother of God! Mother of God! Amen.

However, the fact remains that she is our spiritual mother--yours, mine and all believers the world over. We know this not only from John 19:27, cited above, but from Revelation 12:17.

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

So lighten up on her and call her "blessed" like we are supposed to do. Luke 1:48. :thumbsup:

 

[Sapper Woody]

However, the fact remains that she is our spiritual mother--yours, mine and all believers the world over. We know this not only from John 19:27, cited above, but from Revelation 12:17. So lighten up on her and call her "blessed" like we are supposed to do. Luke 1:48. :thumbsup:

John 19:27 was directed at one specific person when Christ said "behold, your mother". He was telling that disciple to take care of Mary since Christ would not be there to do it anymore.

As someone already pointed out, the "woman" references in Revelation are not pointing to Mary.

Luke 1:48 states that we will call her blessed. Yes, she was blessed with an amazing gift. AMONG women, not ABOVE women. I have been blessed with a great family, a good job that pays the bills, and a car that runs. So, you have to say that I am blessed. Do you put that as a title over me? No. Neither then should we for Mary. She was blessed, obviously. But it's not a title.

 

[Revmitchell]

However, the fact remains that she is our spiritual mother--yours, mine and all believers the world over. We know this not only from John 19:27, cited above, but from Revelation 12:17. So lighten up on her and call her "blessed" like we are supposed to do. Luke 1:48. :thumbsup:

She is not my spiritual mother and no scripture not even the one you mention suggests that.

 

[Yeshua1]

No women is the mother of God. God has no mother. God has no father. God was not conceived by a mother and father, nor was God ever birthed!

mary was mother of the Incarnated God, Jesus, so NOT the Mother of the Godhead, but was birth mother of Son of God, giving to Him his humanity/nature!

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I don't believe Scripture indicates but possibly from conception. However, whenever the baby Mary carried took on the nature of God Mary is not the mother of God. Tell me and others on this forum. What is a mother in the sense used in reference to the birth of Jesus Christ.

The point is, that if Christ was God Incarnate in the womb of Mary, then Mary can be called the 'mother of God' in the sense that the Person she gave birth to is God. ( It doesn't in anyway mean she created God, or that somehow God didn't exist before Mary). 'THEOTOKOS' more literally means 'birth giver of God', and she was able to do so because He became Incarnate in her womb.

At any rate, if Jesus wasn't God incarnate AT CONCEPTION, then one is left with a form of Nestorianism--two separate persons (one human and one Divine) that simply came in conjunction as the figure, Jesus of Nazareth. TRUE CHISTOLOGY teaches that Jesus CHRIST is ONE DIVINE PERSON--the ETERNAL WORD of God who in time became Incarnate (assuming a human NATURE, not a separate human PERSON) in Mary's womb.

 

[agedman]

From Peter of Alexandira, "They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandia [A.D. 305])

When I first heard the statement "ever-virgin Mary" I first was shocked and then laughed aloud at the foolishness of the statement.

Mary was certainly NO VIRGIN after the birth of Christ!

The half brothers and sisters of The Lord Jesus also demonstrate she was no virgin.

Such foolishness is human exaltation of her far above just being "blessed" as the angle stated she would be considered. It is making her an idol, and that is detestable to God.

Mary did not die for my sin, and saying ten thousand upon ten thousand "hail Mary" acquires nothing of God's favor, forgiveness, nor any measure of redemption.


Mary should be an example of purity and chastity for all youth.

Would that the RCC, placed the priority of chastity upon all youth. They would venerate Mary, but not teach that the ONLY reason God favored Mary was for two causes. 1) She was a descendent of King Dave. 2) She was pure in body and mind.

But then, what does one expect from a deceitful group that will embrace the anti-christ and have historically been anti-christ.

 

[Jerome]

It's confessed by the Reformed as well:

see Second Helvetic Confession, Chap. 11: "the ever virgin Mary"

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals

 

[Doubting Thomas]

It's confessed by the Reformed as well:

see Second Helvetic Confession, Chap. 11: "the ever virgin Mary"

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals

Luther, Calvin, and John Wesley all believed Mary was 'ever Virgin' if I'm not mistaken. The Scriptures do NOT specifically say that the brothers (and sisters) of Jesus were the children of Mary, or that Mary even had any other children. The earliest tradition regarding the brothers of Jesus were that they were Joseph's by a previous marriage and were thus OLDER than Jesus. This may explain why they often talked down to Jesus (before His resurrection at any rate) and why Joseph (an older widower) was no longer around when Jesus had reached adulthood.

I don't think one can be dogmatic either way, as long as one confesses Mary was a Virgin at the time of Christ's conception and birth. While Mary should certainly be given more respect that most Prostestants give her these days, I don't think it's appropriate to excessively emphasize her as many RCs and EOs tend to do. The truth lies in the middle (via media) :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

I don't think one can be dogmatic either way, as long as one confesses Mary was a Virgin at the time of Christ's conception and birth. While Mary should certainly be given more respect that most Prostestants give her these days, I don't think it's appropriate to excessively emphasize her as many RCs and EOs tend to do. The truth lies in the middle (via media) :smilewinkgrin:

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

I think it is very conclusive. One just has to look at the evidence presented in the Bible, and then believe it.

 

[Zenas]

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

I think it is very conclusive. One just has to look at the evidence presented in the Bible, and then believe it.

The concept of the Trinity was not well established in Bible times. John seemed to understand it but Luke made no allusions to it. Without reference to the Trinity it makes no sense to refer to the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God.

 

[DHK]

The concept of the Trinity was not well established in Bible times. John seemed to understand it but Luke made no allusions to it. Without reference to the Trinity it makes no sense to refer to the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God.

I posted the quote of Acts 1:14 in rebuttal to this statement:

The earliest tradition regarding the brothers of Jesus were that they were Joseph's by a previous marriage and were thus OLDER than Jesus.

First, Jesus was the firstborn, and therefore the oldest.
Second, Mary was a virgin when married.
Third, it would have been an insult to Mary's family had she married a widower.

I am appalled at this lowly view that the Catholics take of Mary. Godly parents today look out for their children. They try to emphasize to their children the importance of purity and keeping their bodies chaste and pure, and thus keeping their virginity--the evil of immorality before marriage. They also try to find the same type of partner for their child in marriage--chaste, pure, a virgin. That is the ultimate in marriage.
Even in Islam this holds true. Islamic marriages are most often arranged and things like this are important to the parents looking for a prospective spouse for their children.

The RCC would have us believe that the parents of Mary auctioned her off as a maid to some old man to take care of his children that he couldn't take care of himself. How dreadful! This is not even Biblical. It is imaginative but not biblical. The parents of Mary, and other relatives such as Elizabeth and Zacharias would have been very careful in finding a suitable husband for Mary--chaste, pure, a virgin, etc.; not some old widower that already had a family. Mary did not marry a family. She married a person, a young man named Joseph, a carpenter by trade. After Christ was born, Joseph went into Mary and "knew" her and she conceived. The other children are mentioned in Matthew 13:55ff.

It is much easier to believe the Bible then to invent stories.

 

[BobRyan]

The concept of the Trinity was not well established in Bible times. John seemed to understand it but Luke made no allusions to it. Without reference to the Trinity it makes no sense to refer to the Blessed Virgin as Mother of God.

The Trinity - cannot be used as the excuse for giving out titles such as "stronger than God" , "wiser than God", "instructor of God", "Mother of God" etc to the parents of Jesus.

It is does not add light - it only adds confusion leading to "co-redemptrix" and praying to the dead etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Syllogism it is.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to speak.
Therefore, Mary taught God to walk.
Therefore, Mary taught God to eat politely.
Therefore, Mary taught God to read.
Therefore, Mary taught God His name.

Joseph was head of his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the head of God.

Joseph was to protect his family.
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph is the protector of God.

Joseph was stronger than the children in his family
Jesus was a child in Joseph's family
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Joseph was stronger than God.

Your first syllogism is correct. However, as I read through the others something seemed wrong but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. This evening I read a little philosophy (not really my favorite stuff) and now I know what it is. Your last three attempts at using logic to produce an absurdity are flawed with what is known as the "fallacy of four terms." However, I will give you credit for your ingenuity, if not for your correct use of logic.

I'm not sure what "title" you're referring to other than "Mother of God" and so what if the Bible doesn't use it? .

The bible does not use any of the titles listed above.

And most people know not to use them either.

And i have not used the fallacy of four terms.

Easy illustration

Categorical syllogisms always have three terms:
Major premise: All fish have fins.Minor premise: All goldfish are fish.Conclusion: All goldfish have fins. Here, the three terms are: "goldfish", "fish", and "fins".

Using four terms invalidates the syllogism:
Major premise: All fish have fins.Minor premise: All goldfish are fish.Conclusion: All humans have fins.

If I had said
"Mary is the Mother of Jesus
"Jesus is God
" Therefore Joseph is the Mother of God"

or "Therefore Zenas is the Mother of God"

That would be the fallacy of four terms that is invalid.

I do not use it - as we all know.

i stick to 3 but I used shorthand - here is the long version.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to speak.



Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to walk.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to eat politely.

Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God to read.


Mary taught Jesus to speak.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary taught God His name.


Mary taught Jesus to many things.
Jesus is God.
Mary was wiser than God Himself.

The same goes for titles available to Joseph as the one stronger than God, or protector of God, instructor of God or ....


All things that we would/should know instinctively to avoid because they are forms of blasphemy. They do not exalt God - they exalt Mary and Joseph and create false conclusions about them.

in Christ,
Bob

 

[Zenas]

When I first heard the statement "ever-virgin Mary" I first was shocked and then laughed aloud at the foolishness of the statement.

Mary was certainly NO VIRGIN after the birth of Christ!

The half brothers and sisters of The Lord Jesus also demonstrate she was no virgin.

Such foolishness is human exaltation of her far above just being "blessed" as the angle stated she would be considered. It is making her an idol, and that is detestable to God.

Mary did not die for my sin, and saying ten thousand upon ten thousand "hail Mary" acquires nothing of God's favor, forgiveness, nor any measure of redemption.


Mary should be an example of purity and chastity for all youth.

Would that the RCC, placed the priority of chastity upon all youth. They would venerate Mary, but not teach that the ONLY reason God favored Mary was for two causes. 1) She was a descendent of King Dave. 2) She was pure in body and mind.

But then, what does one expect from a deceitful group that will embrace the anti-christ and have historically been anti-christ.

If we can put aside prejudices and long held notions, and look at scripture objectively, the evidence that Mary remained a virgin her entire life is overwhelming.

1. Scripture never says that Mary had other children. We can only infer this on account of Scriptural references to brothers and sisters of the Lord. But nowhere were they referred to as children of Mary.

2. Reference to brothers and sisters would certainly include the possibility that these people were "half siblings", i.e., children of Joseph by an earlier marriage. In fact, this belief prevailed in the early church until the time of Jerome (d. 420). Jerome concluded that these brothers and sisters were in fact cousins. In Hebrew and Aramaic there was no word for "cousin" and the relationship was either designated "brother" or it was shown by language such as "son of my father's brother", etc. For example, Genesis 14:14 (KJV) refers to Lot as Abram's brother; in Genesis 29:15 (KJV) Laban calls Jacob his brother; in 2 Kings 10:13-14 (KJV) the 42 captives of Jehu call themselves brothers of Ahaziah. Indeed it is possible that some of the "brothers" of Jesus were half-brothers and others were cousins.

3. When the angel announced the coming birth of the King of Israel, Mary's response was, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" The implication here is that Mary had already committed herself to remain a virgin. The angel did not say when this birth was to take place and Mary was espoused to Joseph at that time. If she had planned on having sexual relations, she would be doing so shortly and it would not be a mystery how the birth was to occur. However, if she planned on remaining a virgin all her life, her question to the angel was perfectly logical.

4. In the episode where the parents of Jesus found Him in the temple at age twelve, there is no mention of other children and if there had been other younger children they likely would have been mentioned.

5. None of the early church fathers advocated that Mary had other children. On the other hand, many of them advocated her perpetual virginity. Of particular note among this group were Jerome, Ambrose of Milan (d. 397) and Augustine (d. 430).

6. The early reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley all advocated the perpetual virginity of Mary.

7. The strongest indicator that Mary had no other children is contained in John 19:26-27, where Jesus places the care of his mother with John. If Mary had other children, this would have been unthinkable at every level imaginable. In fact, it was when I really thought about this event that I decided Mary did not have any other children.

The only difficult Scripture for those who advocate the perpetual virginity of Mary is Matthew 1:25 ("but [Joseph] kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son"). The implication is that Joseph had sexual relations with his wife after the birth of Jesus. But the language of the Bible does not bear this out. For example, consider 1 Corinthians 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." Should we infer that He ceases to reign after He has put all His enemies under His feet? Likewise, we need not infer that Joseph had sexual relations with his wife after the birth of Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

7. The strongest indicator that Mary had no other children is contained in John 19:26-27, where Jesus places the care of his mother with John. If Mary had other children, this would have been unthinkable at every level imaginable. In fact, it was when I really thought about this event that I decided Mary did not have any other children.

The only difficult Scripture for those who advocate the perpetual virginity of Mary is Matthew 1:25 ("but [Joseph] kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son"). The implication is that Joseph had sexual relations with his wife after the birth of Jesus. .

Agreed on both counts.

It may be that God did not allow Mary to conceive again to reduce the potential confusion that could have come about after Christ's death.

Even so not "Mother of God" or "instructor of God" or "wiser than God" or "teacher of God" titles given to Mary in the Bible. Because Jesus was not created at his birth - but was rather incarnated. A previously existing person was "incarnated" not "created" at birth. That previously existing person - created Mary, Mary did not create Him through birth. This is the right way to highlight the deity of Christ, his pre-existence.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

First, Jesus was the firstborn, and therefore the oldest.

Sorry, Jesus being the "firstborn" meant "the first to be born-again",
i.e. the foist to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within.
(No, the "only-begotten" was not the first ahead of other only-begottens.)

And here we return to my favorite topic ...
-- in the OT, God's anointed had the Spirit come UPON them
-- in the NT, God's BACs had the Spirit come IN them

Pentecost was a special initial outpouring where all of the 120
(as far as I can tell) received BOTH simultaneously.
Just as today, some receive both at the same time.

Over and out from Starship #2840583.
.

 

[DHK]

Sorry, Jesus being the "firstborn" meant "the first to be born-again",
i.e. the foist to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within.
(No, the "only-begotten" was not the first ahead of other only-begottens.)
.

That is as blatant heresy as one could ever post. To say that the Son of God, the incarnate deity, the second person of the triune Godhead, the Creator Himself, the Lord of Lords and King of kings, before whom every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord, that HE needed salvation is the greatest blasphemy one could ever commit.