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Featured The Objector in Romans 9 is an Arminian

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 19, 2014.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Again, that is beside the point as the use of a diatribe argument wouldn't affect the manner it which it was presented to the congregation. It only speaks to the intent of the author.

    Well, we know that Paul goes on to speak of the Jews who have stumbled, been cut off and are being hardened as in comparison to the Gentiles who are believing and being grafted in. (Rm. 9:32-11:32), but if you don't think Paul might be expressing that one of those hardened/cut off people might actually object in this manner, I guess you can keep thinking that...

    Why would a Gentile, who is being grafted in, shown mercy and believing bring this objection? Clearly, Paul is anticipating this objection from the general individual Jew who God has cut off and hardened...if you can't see that then what else can I say?
     
    #41 Skandelon, Jan 22, 2014
  2. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The Jews, leading up to the crucifixion, screamed, "let His blood be upon us and our children". Looks like the Jews are being condemned because of what their forefathers said.
     
    #42 convicted1, Jan 22, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is my point! The intent of the author is affected by whom he is addressing the letter unto. He is not addressing the letter to hardened Jews but to born again Jews and Gentiles. Hence, he would not expect any hardened Jew to be in the assemblies or audiance listening to the letter being read. In addition, the preceding context (Rom. 8:28-39) would naturally bring up this very issue among those SAVED Jews in the audiance as they were raised in Judaism and the promise of Abraham. So this would be a ligitimate issue to be addressed because of the SAVED JEWISH AUDIANCE within these assemblies. He NEVER directly addesses such hardened Jews in Romans 9-11.

    He speaks "of" a lot of issues and things throughout the epistle but never directly addresses such Jews. There is no more basis to suggest he is addressing hardened Jews in Romans 9-11 any more than he is addressing hardened Jews in Romans 14-15.



    Romans 11 is about the NATION of Israel not about individual "Jews." What has been cut off in Romans 11 is the NATION of Israel not individual Jews. This is a NATIONAL hardening of Israel not about individual hardening of Jews.

    Of course I realize that the NATION is made up of individual Jews but Paul is making a clear distinction between what is cut of and what is not cut off in regard to Israel in Romans 11 and most significantly this hardening has been a generational truth from the time of Elijah - Romans 11:1-8 - whereas, there has always been a "remnant" in every generation that were of the "elect" (Rom. 11:5-7).



    However, that is not the only option! There are SAVED JEWS within this mix and so we are not forced to choose between "a Gentile, who is being grafted in, shown mercy and believing" and the "general indivdiual Jew who God has cut off and hardened" as the SAVED JEW would be very interested in the Abrahamic promise to the NATION of Israel and among them there may be much controversy over this subject.
     
    #43 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, last time...seriously I can't keep saying the same thing over and over. I'm not upset or anything, but one of us has to step off the merry-go-round eventually.

    I agreed a long time ago that the letter is addressed to all types everywhere. I mean we, Gentiles in North America, are reading it two thousand years later. I have never taken any issue with that. But that is not what a diatribe is about. It is about an author anticipating an objection from one of his readers and in this case that objector would most likely be one of the stumbling Jews, who is being hardened and cut off...which Paul references a few dozen times over the next several passages...

    I can't say it any more clear than that and now I will step off...

    Enjoy the ride, got to run.
     
    #44 Skandelon, Jan 22, 2014
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is simply factually wrong and can be shown to be wrong by simply examining to whom Paul explicitly says this letter is addressed unto.

    Rom. 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

    The "all" are carefully defined. First they are "all that BE IN ROME." That is their time and geographical location. Second they are all that be in Rome who are "beloved of God" and third "called to be saints" which separates them from all others in Rome.

    Again, it is not readers" but LISTENERS. Again, their is another alternative that fits the addresees - SAVED JEWS who want to know about the promise of Abraham to Israel and how this fits Israel being cut off.
     
    #45 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Weren't there BOTH saved jews/Gentiles in Roman church assembly, so paul wrote to allow both of them see where they would fit into the plans of God now under New Covenant times?
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Jan 23, 2014
  7. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Yep--nailed it. :thumbs: (This is actually clear from the context; particularly all of chapters 9 through 11--indeed the whole epistle)
     
    #47 Doubting Thomas, Jan 23, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God was dterming to use their willful ignornace, but did not bring that upon them, they were doing 'as they desired!"
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Jan 23, 2014
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul never assumes that all Christians attending a worship service and hearing a letter read - are saved. There is always a mix -- in every congregation.

    This is a "Given" that is pretty much beyond dispute as far as I know.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #49 BobRyan, Jan 23, 2014
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

    Vs 22 God is defending his right to have mercy, patience, kindness on those who He knows by foreknowledge will not be saved. He is defending himself against the classic Calvinist complaint!
     
    #50 BobRyan, Jan 23, 2014
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How so, as paul stated that those vessals were his objects of wrath, created by HIM to fulfill their purposes, for the salke of His elect/chosen people?

    Seems that God was staying sovereign, doesn't it to you?
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2014
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