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The best defense of Arminianism

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evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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What is/are the best book(s) in defense of Arminianism? Chosen But Free? Against Calvinism? Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities?

Since I am reading some good defenses of REFORMED doctrine, perhaps I should read the Arminian side as well. I read CBF in 2009 but can't remember everything.
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Winman said:
Unfortunately, the best book defending non Calvinist or Arminian doctrine is a book against Calvinism.

I have never read this book, but many say it is the best out there.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0962889873/?tag=baptis04-20
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Wow. A seminary level read. Do you have any books that are not as long? For a book that long I think I would rather buy a NT Theology, or Christology of Jesus and the Gospels type of book. Books that both camps can learn from.
 
J

Jacob_Elliott

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evangelist6589 said:
Wow. A seminary level read. Do you have any books that are not as long? For a book that long I think I would rather buy a NT Theology, or Christology of Jesus and the Gospels type of book. Books that both camps can learn from.
Click to expand...

I would also recommend the other side of Calvinism, it's lengthy but it's because the arguments are detailed.
Edit: while there are "good" arguments in this book, a lot of it is dedicated to bashing the character of Calvin
 
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V

Van

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evangelist6589 said:
Why is White wrong?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, James White advocated Calvinism, and Dave Hunt opposed Calvinism. James White had to be wrong because advocating Calvinism is wrong.

Lets take John 6:37, all that the Father gives to Me come to Me.

Now the come to Me would be better translated as "arrive in Me." Besides the lexiconal meaning of the word translated "come" we have the rest of the verse where Jesus says He will not cast out. You cannot be cast out unless you arrive and enter in. Therefore "come to Me" does not refer to come to have faith in Me, the Calvinist rewrite, but rather "arrive in Me, referring to a change is spiritual location, from being outside of Christ to being placed in Christ.

Thus when the Father gives someone to Christ, He places them spiritually in Christ. Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him the Father will give to the Son, and the Son shall not cast out, but raise up on the last day. We are chosen through faith in the truth. Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him is chosen by the Father based on accepting his or her faith, and is set apart (the sanctifying work of the Spirit) in Christ.

Note in verse 45 that hearing and learning is before "come to Me." Hearing is akin to beholding the Son, and learning is akin to believing in the Son. So all who hear and learn are then (1) given by the Father, (2) come - arrive in Me, (3) will not be cast out, and (4) will be raised up on the last day.
 
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convicted1

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Van said:
As I understand it, James White advocated Calvinism, and Dave Hunt opposed Calvinism. James White had to be wrong because advocating Calvinism is wrong.

Lets take John 6:37, all that the Father gives to Me come to Me.

Now the come to Me would be better translated as "arrive in Me." Besides the lexiconal meaning of the word translated "come" we have the rest of the verse where Jesus says He will not cast out. You cannot be cast out unless you arrive and enter in. Therefore "come to Me" does not refer to come to have faith in Me, the Calvinist rewrite, but rather "arrive in Me, referring to a change is spiritual location, from being outside of Christ to being placed in Christ.

Thus when the Father gives someone to Christ, He places them spiritually in Christ.
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Brother, you just called Christ the biggest failure that there has ever been. If everyone had been given to Him to atone for their sins, to potentially save, yet many there be that are on that broad road that leadeth to destruction, despite everything Christ did to try to save them, they still died lost, because He couldn't save them. He stated that all the Father gave Him, the only one lost was the son of perdition, that the scriptures may be fulfilled. Christ secured salvation for everyone He intended to save and none of them will die as a sheep outside of the fold. They will be placed in the fold because He will go get them and place them inside the fold.
 
J

JamesL

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Rippon said:
So what are you --a Molinist
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That's funny. Actually, before I ever heard of Molina, I was a Molinist - for about 2 days

It was during a time when I was reading as much as I could find, for and against Calvinism and Arminianism, and thinking there must be an overall mediating position. I was knee deep in the issue of sovereignty vs. free will, and I think I just got overloaded with all the stuff

My head was spinning from all the critiques, and I thought it probably shouldn't be too hard to figure it out on my own :p

After all, I'd been a critical thinker all my life, an incessant analyzer, and an all around pretty smart guy (so I thought).

So I just sat and pondered. It took a total of about 10 minutes and I was convinced I had the answer. I was so excited that I had figured out one of the toughest mysteries around

It sort of just lost its punch after a couple of days, and faded into a pretty non-essential. I think I really just needed to get away from all the books for a while



in the fashion of William Lane Craig?
Click to expand...
Ur Funee :D
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

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convicted1 said:
Brother, you just called Christ the biggest failure that there has ever been. If everyone had been given to Him to atone for their sins, to potentially save, yet many there be that are on that broad road that leadeth to destruction, despite everything Christ did to try to save them, they still died lost, because He couldn't save them.
Click to expand...

"He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sin and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

God sent His son to be "the savior of the WORLD" 1John 4.

You mean "if that is true" then Jesus was a failure and should be lamenting the loss of the "MANY" in Matt7 instead of just "not caring about them as in Calvinism?" (as if not caring would solve the problem?)

=================================

Calvinism makes God the cause of His own lament.

in Christ,

Bob
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

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Speaking of God's Lament "Given that the MANY of Matt 7 do not come to salvation"

[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Calvinism's cause/reason for the Lament:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Calvinism responds to God’s Lament “Why will you die” with an extreme form of ‘inference” that it pours into Deut 5:59. Instead of the obvious cause[/FONT]à[FONT=&quot] effect. Israel chooses faithfulness to God – and God responds with blessing and protection. Calvinism “infers” that it is GOD who is causing Israel to sabotage his plans for them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

In reality we all know God's lament is not about "himself" being saboteur of his own plans, or about Himself forgetting to provide the necessary means. Nobody can doubt that. But here Calvinism has the ultimate doctrine-by-inference to refute the common sense reading of the texts.

[/FONT]By contrast: God's "Appeal" and Lament

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The elephant in Calvinism’s living room is that they make God the saboteur of His own Gospel plans for life and salvation – the cause of His own lament
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]– like a house wife with a broom lamenting as she stares at a pile of dirt that is not swept clean, crying out “what more could I have done!! Why are you still just sitting there unswept??”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It appears to those watching Calvinism making such claims - that it is all counter intuitive - counter to the Word of God and based solely on incorrect "inferences" inserted into a text here or there.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
And of course we have the global scope of the work of God - which explains how that lament of God can be so massive.

2Peter 3 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


1 John 2 (NIV)
 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2Cor 5
"We beg you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"
 
Y

Yeshua1

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evangelist6589 said:
What is/are the best book(s) in defense of Arminianism? Chosen But Free? Against Calvinism? Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities?

Since I am reading some good defenses of REFORMED doctrine, perhaps I should read the Arminian side as well. I read CBF in 2009 but can't remember everything.
Click to expand...

Arminian theology:Myths and realities, by Roger Olsen

Also the theologies of Norman Geisler and thomas oden!

that would be a complete primer set!
 
V

Van

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convicted1 said:
Brother, you just called Christ the biggest failure that there has ever been. If everyone had been given to Him to atone for their sins, to potentially save, yet many there be that are on that broad road that leadeth to destruction, despite everything Christ did to try to save them, they still died lost, because He couldn't save them. He stated that all the Father gave Him, the only one lost was the son of perdition, that the scriptures may be fulfilled. Christ secured salvation for everyone He intended to save and none of them will die as a sheep outside of the fold. They will be placed in the fold because He will go get them and place them inside the fold.
Click to expand...

1) Since Christ is not and I never suggested He was, a failure, you start with a slander. Strike one.

2) Next you post irrational gibberish. Strike two

3) Everyone given to Christ is saved, not potentially saved, for Christ will not cast them out.

4) Christ saves whoever God places in Him, 100%.

5) Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, thus "purchasing with His blood" all mankind, including those who die in unbelief. 2 Peter 2:1.

6) But only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are placed in Christ and "receive" the forgiveness of sin.
 
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