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The best defense of Arminianism
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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Are you speaking of Chosen But Free?
In order to be a Calvinist, you must accept irrationality as exhibited above.
Jesus laid down his life as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:6)
The Father's will is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) Now the irrational Calvinist wrongly asserts God wants to compel everyone to come to the knowledge of truth, rather than allow individuals to accept or reject the gospel.
Next we get the irrational "whoever allows God to save them" nonsense. Salvation does not depend on the man that wills, Romans 9:16. But the irrational Calvinists make that claim, or more accurately make the strawman argument that others make that claim. Twaddle
Just read your bible folks, Calvinism is nowhere to be found. But the simply plain and straightforward gospel leaps from the page, whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Now it is God who decided whose belief is credited as righteousness, and so saying a sinners prayer or walking to the front of the church will not get it done. Read Matthew 13 and consider what sort of soil you are!
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Yes, also need to add Elect in the Son, by Robert Shank, that was text in AOG school for me!
the more that I read your postings, more you prove that the truth of calvinism as regarding salvation way is correct one, for how can sinners whose bent is to stay in the dark EVER come unto Christ to get saved by him?
For IF ot was the determined Will of God that all jesus died for would be saved by that, he would have offerred Universalism, but he chose not too, so death meant for some, but not all!
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1) You say Calvinism is true, but all the evidence screams it is false.
2) You say no one would come to Christ, yet again simply ignoring Matthew 23:13.
3) Jesus paid the ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6. Saying Jesus did not is simply yet another falsehood.
All Calvinists post the same absurdities, repeating the arguments that have been refuted time and again. They do not seem to be able to study God's word and figure out Christ became the propitiation for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
jesus said that he came to give his life a ransom for MANY, NOT ALL, hebrews author agrred, that His High priestly position was for the benefit of the MANY that he would redeem....
he came for his own sheep, not ALL sinners, as those NOT of him would not hear and heed his voice...
was that in your bible?
If you are going to make your argument based on the word "all" you are going to find yourself in a contradictory position.
1) Simply repeating yet again the same false claims that have been refuted time and time again.
2) Since 1 John 2:2 is in my Bible, the "many" must be defined as everyone but Christ, contrasting the many with the One.
3) No verse says He came for His own sheep. Why make up your own scripture, why not stick with what God inspired.
4) Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (which includes all the sheep, both His and those not His.)
I am not , that would be the position Van holds to, for he sees jesus died for all, God will is all to get saved, All will be drawn to jesus by God etc!
Pay no attention to Yeshua1 when he says what Van's position on anything is, unless a he provides a quote.
For the record and for the umpteenth time, all means all of the group in view. Will "all" be drawn to Jesus, or only those who behold Him high and lifted up?
Does Van see Jesus as dying for all, or is that what 1 Timothy 2:6 says? Does God desire all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth per 1 Timothy 2:4. Calvinism is based on nullifying scripture after scripture, claiming it does not mean what it says. Then they make up scripture and proclaim it,i.e. Jesus came for His own sheep.
For the record and for the umpteenth time, all means all of the group in view. Will "all" be drawn to Jesus, or only those who behold Him high and lifted up?
Does Van see Jesus as dying for all, or is that what 1 Timothy 2:6 says? Does God desire all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth per 1 Timothy 2:4. Calvinism is based on nullifying scripture after scripture, claiming it does not mean what it says. Then they make up scripture and proclaim it,i.e. Jesus came for His own sheep.
No Calvinist believes that Van. When Calvinists take issue with your Vanology they make statements which,employing your logic entails such and such.
See my point above.
Do you ever wonder why Calvinists don't usually jump in to rebut your constant misrepresentations Van? It's because you do it so often it's not worth the time and effort to address your nonsensical assertions.
Thanks Van. You reminded me of a Spurgeon quote from his "Defense of Calvinism" booklet.
"I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and he could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there,for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him,'I think you read
the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture,and if you had read it in your easy chair,you would have been more likely to understand it...and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election,the wonder is that you found anything at all:you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures.' "
References to John 10 In The NIV
Christ calls His own sheep out by name and leads them out.(vs.3).Verse four says "When he has brought out all his own."
Christ is the good shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep.(Verses 11,15).
Christ knows His sheep and they know Him. (vs.14)
In verse 16 Christ references other sheep not of "this sheepfold" --which to me means not only His elect ones among the Jews -- but among the Gentiles as well.
Van,do you realize that some folks are goats and that they have no part in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world? There will be a clear division between the unsaved and the lost. The former are goats and the later are His sheep. The former group will go away into eternal punishment.
Christ did not die for the goats --only for His sheep,which are variously called the Church,His Body,His Bride and many other designations in His Word.
When you disagree you have not necessarily refuted Calvinism once and for all. ;-) I know you are a man on a mission. But it is wrongheaded. True missions witness to the lost. And I think you believe that Calvinists must be lost. But your "witnessing" to them on the BB is not part of the Great Commission. Not by a stretch!
No,you are wrong Van. But console yourself,the Pharisees did not understand either.(John 10:6)
Christ calls His own sheep out by name and leads them out.(vs.3).Verse four says "When he has brought out all his own."
Christ is the good shepherd who lays down his life for the sheep.(Verses 11,15).
Christ knows His sheep and they know Him. (vs.14)
In verse 16 Christ references other sheep not of "this sheepfold" --which to me means not only His elect ones among the Jews -- but among the Gentiles as well.
Van,do you realize that some folks are goats and that they have no part in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world? There will be a clear division between the unsaved and the lost. The former are goats and the later are His sheep. The former group will go away into eternal punishment.
Christ did not die for the goats --only for His sheep,which are variously called the Church,His Body,His Bride and many other designations in His Word.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"he is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins ( the saints) and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.
Calvinism does not survive 1John 2:2 without a drastic downsize and nonsensical bend into OUR = Whole World is if the text had said "And not for OUR sins only but for OUR sins!"
How sad.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The "Whole world" being watered down -- downsized into "The FEW of Matt 7 scattered here and there around the world"--
What false advertising would such a method be guilty of?
No corp marketing gimmick could conceive of a more misleading way to state "just the FEW of Matt 7".
Astounding!!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
What is amazing is that the most powerful statements in the Bible depicting God as an all-loving "God so LOVED the WORLD" and "Sent His son to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD" and "Atoning sacrifice for the sins of .. the WHOLE WORLD" are texts to be attacked, downsized, watered-down, diminished in Calvinism's model.
Taking the very flower of the Gospel reach, scope, heart, Love of God for ALL -- and turning it into a miserly "Well really just the FEW of Matt 7 but I don't like the sound of that so I prefer to call it WHOLE WORLD".
Not only making God the CAUSE of His own lament -
But also making him unwilling to stated his true case in the "small miserly" terms - but rather using "WHOLE WORLD" any time he wants to appear to be seen as magnanimous and yet still mean "really just the FEW of Matt 7".
Surely at least ONE Calvinist had to look at this and ask himself if there was not a small problem in the model he was using to downsize the Bible.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
PERFECT Calvinist future scenario
Ok folks - this is BobRyan from years back -- so we all knew -- this one was coming...
=====================================================
5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:
“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry
"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"
And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!
"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not.
(For within Calvinism it IS all about the saved/elect in the end)
We see the Calvinist blessing the fact that God chose him albeit not his precious daughter. AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.
So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.
Hint: By contrast – Moses’ prayer of intercession on behalf of the CHILDREN of Israel is to blot out HIS name and take them! [/quote]
You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?
Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!
================
And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.
We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.
Ok folks - this is BobRyan from years back -- so we all knew -- this one was coming...
=====================================================
5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:
“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry
"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"
And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!
"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not.
(For within Calvinism it IS all about the saved/elect in the end)
We see the Calvinist blessing the fact that God chose him albeit not his precious daughter. AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.
So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.
Hint: By contrast – Moses’ prayer of intercession on behalf of the CHILDREN of Israel is to blot out HIS name and take them! [/quote]
You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?
Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!
================
All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?
And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.
We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.
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