Matthew 10

[webdog]

21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

If one flees persecution, are they not "finding" their life? At what point should one flee persecution and remain to be martyred? This appears contradictory on the surface.

 

[kyredneck]

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you;
18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.
21 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name`s sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10

This is prophecy fulfilled webdog. It happened. It came upon 'that generation' and it happened to those apostles He was talking to.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1510881#post1510881

 

[webdog]

Regardless of past or future, both passages apply and my question remains.

 

[kyredneck]

35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law:
36 and a man`s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Mt 10

IMO, v. 39 is connected with the immediate preceding passages instead of v. 21 (after all, Christ TOLD them to flee).

Undoubtedly the conflict within the households was Christ, old covenant Jews vs. new covenant Jews.

Those losing their lives (as they had known it before) were those those that chose Christ over their own wives and children and blood kin. jmho

 

[Van]

21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

If one flees persecution, are they not "finding" their life? At what point should one flee persecution and remain to be martyred? This appears contradictory on the surface.

Are we to borrow trouble from tomorrow?

We are to present the gospel, but we are to act wisely. At some point the well may become so poisoned it is better to move on so that the gospel will be heard by those open to God.

We are to go "all in" for Christ, thus losing the life we relinquish, but we are called to enlarge the kingdom, not waste out life prematurely.

 

[kyredneck]

...he who stands firm to the end will be saved...

The exhortation is in the same vein as:

6 but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.
14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3
14 Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Heb 4
23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised: Heb 10

Those that didn't endure or held fast to the end:

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb 10

 

[kyredneck]

....When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another...

Is in the same vein as:

But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. Lu 21:20-23

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301

 

[convicted1]

Are we to borrow trouble from tomorrow?

We are to present the gospel, but we are to act wisely. At some point the well may become so poisoned it is better to move on so that the gospel will be heard by those opened by God.

We are to go "all in" for Christ, thus losing the life we relinquish, but we are called to enlarge the kingdom, not waste out life prematurely.

There, I corrected that for you. :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin: :wavey: :love2:

 

[kyredneck]

There, I corrected that for you. :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin:

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hehehehehe...I was just funning with Brother Van. Hopefully he won't be offended.

 

[kyredneck]

Lydia....whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14

You may've been 'funnin', but you're also right.

 

[convicted1]

Lydia....whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14

You may've been 'funnin', but you're also right.

'zactly....

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

'zactly....

:thumbs: :applause:

 

[Van]

A wink and a nod, and a vague phrase, and away we go! Now we get "opened her heart" redefined as "opened her heart with irresistible grace." Calvinism never found a scripture it could not rewrite to say something else.

Any time to "educate" (lead out) a person you open their heart.

Does faith come by hearing the word of God or by being instilled via Irresistible Grace?

What is the power of God for salvation, the gospel of Christ or Irresistible Grace?

The Lord opened Lydia's heart with power of the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

So who's stronger Van? God or the devil? Or are you gonna do that 'Arminian' thingie and arbitrarily insert the will of man into the text?

 

[webdog]

Can we NOT turn this into an irresistible grace thread please? My question has absolutely nothing to do with Calvinism. Keep it that way!

 

[kyredneck]

....If one flees persecution, are they not "finding" their life?...

Christ told them to flee. "Finding" their life was choosing Christ over family.

At what point should one flee persecution and remain to be martyred?

I don't know if you're in a bad situation at work (or where ever) because of your beliefs, you haven't said. There was a time in my career that I was under great distress, if not directly it was consequently for my faith, and I prayed, begged for deliverance from it.

Two things miraculously happened. An evangelical SB pastor of a local mega-Church gave a brief spill, on the radio channel that I frequented, for believers in a stressful situation. The sticking points from this mini-sermon for me were:

"If you're in a stressful situation you have only three options:

1. Do something to change it.

2. Accept it the way it is.

3. Walk away and leave it."

The very next Sunday a visiting preacher at our Church, who didn’t know me from Adam, miraculously gave a 'tailor made sermon just for lil’ ol’ me’, and he described precisely my doubts and fears, all centered around being ‘unequally yoked with unbelievers’, which again was precisely the source of my stress. After that I had great peace with my situation, I knew that it was OK with God if I chose to leave, which in itself greatly changed my attitude about things and I stayed on, ‘I endured’, and as the old saying goes, ‘this too will pass’, it passed in what I consider also miraculously, but that’s another story all in itself.

This appears contradictory on the surface.

“…he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another…”

‘Standing firm’ vs. ‘fleeing’ would be the superficial contradiction that I see in the text.

 

[convicted1]

Christ told them to flee. "Finding" their life was choosing Christ over family.



I don't know if you're in a bad situation at work (or where ever) because of your beliefs, you haven't said. There was a time in my career that I was under great distress, if not directly it was consequently for my faith, and I prayed, begged for deliverance from it.

Two things miraculously happened. An evangelical SB pastor of a local mega-Church gave a brief spill, on the radio channel that I frequented, for believers in a stressful situation. The sticking points from this mini-sermon for me were:

"If you're in a stressful situation you have only three options:

1. Do something to change it.

2. Accept it the way it is.

3. Walk away and leave it."

The very next Sunday a visiting preacher at our Church, who didn’t know me from Adam, miraculously gave a 'tailor made sermon just for lil’ ol’ me’, and he described precisely my doubts and fears, all centered around being ‘unequally yoked with unbelievers’, which again was precisely the source of my stress. After that I had great peace with my situation, I knew that it was OK with God if I chose to leave, which in itself greatly changed my attitude about things and I stayed on, ‘I endured’, and as the old saying goes, ‘this too will pass’, it passed in what I consider also miraculously, but that’s another story all in itself.



“…he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another…”

‘Standing firm’ vs. ‘fleeing’ would be the superficial contradiction that I see in the text.

Most wonderful and insightful post, Brother!! :jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

[kyredneck]

Did you notice how it was the 'preaching of the gospel' that saved me?

Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:16

The teaching of those two blessed preachers saved me from my distress. His children are in continual need of salvation (deliverance) in this time realm.

 

[convicted1]

Did you notice how it was the 'preaching of the gospel' that saved me?

Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:16

The teaching of those two blessed preachers saved me from my distress. His children are in continual need of salvation (deliverance) in this time realm.

No one is saved w/o the gospel. Just like faith, neither save, God's grace does that, but w/o faith and the gospel, none are saved.