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Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    A. John 6:44 clearly and explicitly states that "no man can come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him." That is the only possible way to come to Christ.

    B. John 6:37-39 clearly and explicitly states that "of all" those the Father "gives" to Christ "SHALL COME TO ME"
    Therefore, both "give" and "draw" stand in the same causal relationship to coming to Christ.

    1. "give" is present tense while "come" is future tense "SHALL come" and thus being given is the stated grammatical cause for coming.
    2. "draw" is present tense and is the explicitly stated cause for coming.


    C. Hence, inclusive in being given is drawing or else it is impossible for "all" given to come to Christ as "no man can come to me EXCEPT" they are drawn and "of all" given NONE FAIL TO COME and thus "of all" given NONE FAIL TO BE DRAWN - this is irresistable effectual drawing "of all" given as all come.


    C. Now, to be given is to be drawn but is to be drawn is to be given? This is the issue of debate.

    1. If it can be proven that the reason for remaining in unbelief is because they were never drawn than draw equals being given - vv. 64-65

    2. If it is asserted that being drawn by the Father is not inclusive of having "heard......and learned" of the Father then Christ is contradicted when he says "no man can come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him" as there are more exceptions than being drawn but additionally to drawing one must have "learned....and have heard" of the Father in addition to being drawn. - which is it?

    3. If it is admitted that being drawn by the Father is inclusive of having "heard....and learned" of the Father then "every man" thus drawn does in fact come to Christ (Jn. 6:44b) and only those never drawn do not come to Christ (vv. 64-65) and thus "draw" equals "gives."

    It can be contextually shown that the reason for unbelief (v. 36) is because they were not "of all" that were given to the Son BECAUSE all given to the Son DO COME to Christ (vv. 37-39).

    It can be contextually shown that the reason for unbelief (v. 64) is because they were never drawn (v. 65) which is inclusive of having "heard....and learned" as every man that hath "heard.....and learned" = "draw" does come to Christ (v. 45b).
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those whom the father elected to give to Him from eternity past shall be drawn to Him in the present....
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, here is the evidence for Arminians to address. Here again is absolute contextual based evidence that "give" includes irresistable effectual drawing "of all" given to the Son by the Father as NONE ARE LOST - Jn. 6:39.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Imo, part of the problem with understanding John 6:44 is the inability of the arminian thinking folks to grasp these two things.

    First, that "draws" in the original has the meaning of dragging - as one who is resistant is drawn. It is as one who is thrown into the back of a wagon and hauled.

    There is not a single believer who is/was not "born again" without the Holy Spirit dragging/hauling them and the natural man resisting that action with all manner of evil distraction. Not a single testimony shared on the BB does not have that as part of the experiential truth of Salvation.

    Second that "gives" (in John 6:37) has the meaning of one allowed or commanded, to bestow as a gift. As a king bestows knighthood.

    In this thread the drawing and the giving have similar structures, because that which is bestowed is done even when one resists and has to be hauled to that appointment.

    The English is just so weak (imo) in comparison to the original languages and causes all manner of obstinate resistance to the Truth.

    Thank you, Biblicist, for consistency with the Scriptures.
     
    #4 agedman, Jan 22, 2014
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your welcome! The fact that "of all" the Father "gives" do in fact come proves that inclusive in giving is drawing as "no man can come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him." Not only so, but it is irrresistable and effectual drawing as "of all" who come "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

    The fact that both "draw" and "give" are found in the present tense but "shall come" is found in the future tense proves grammatically that the stated grammatical cause for coming is being given and being drawn. Hence, their argument of foreknowledge falls flat.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    To piggyback the OP, in Luke 15, Jesus talks about the Shepherd leaving the 99 in the flock and going and getting his lost sheep. He then puts it upon His shoulders and carries it back and places it in the fold. That's akin to John 6 in the OP.
     
    #6 convicted1, Jan 22, 2014
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True. It just does not say "All drawn WILL come". It makes the case that only those drawn "CAN" come so it stops short of actual Calvinism.

    True. But it does not say "all those drawn WILL come to Christ" so it stops short of actual Calvinism because in John 6 "Given to Christ" is inclusive of those who see, who believe, who learn of the Father and who are raised up on the last day.

    It is a highly qualified list.

    It is not the "Draw ALL mankind" unqualified nature of "Drawn" as we see in John 12:32.

    Not text says "All mankind is given of the Father to Christ as saints to be raised up on the last day" or any such thing.

    There is a progression -- all GIVEN to Christ are first DRAWN and some of that "ALL mankind" that is drawn - will come to Christ.

    Therefore, both "give" and "draw" do not stand in the same causal relationship to coming to Christ because only those GIVEN are said to come to Christ.


    C. Now, to be given is to be drawn but is to be drawn is not necessarily to be given? This is the issue of debate.

    1. If it can be proven that the reason for remaining in unbelief is because they were never drawn than draw equals being given - vv. 64-65

    However there is no text that says "they were never drawn and that is why they remain in unbelief".


    2. If it is observed that in John 6 being drawn by the Father is not inclusive of having "heard......and learned" of the Father -- but rather that the text stops short of making that claim for those 'drawn' -- then it is observed that a key claim in Calvinism does not hold up in John 6.

    Christ is then fully consistent when he says "no man can come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him", for Christ also says "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32

    3. If it is observed that in John 6 being GIVEN by the Father is inclusive not only of foreknowledge of God but also of having "heard....and learned" of the Father then "every man" thus GIVEN does in fact come to Christ (Jn. 6:44b) - so that even though "all mankind are DRAWN" John 12:32 only that highly qualified case of "GIVEN" actually come to Christ and are raised up on the last day.

    only those never GIVEN do not come to Christ (vv. 64-65) in the context of the foreknowledge of God who knows their future choices (vs 64) and thus "draw" does not equal "given."

    It can be contextually shown that the reason for unbelief (v. 36) is because they were not "of all" that were given to the Son . In John 6 all given to the Son DO COME to Christ (vv. 37-39), but not all drawn.

    It can be contextually shown that the reason for unbelief (v. 64) is because they were never given (v. 65) which is inclusive of having "heard....and learned" as every man that hath "heard.....and learned" = "given" does come to Christ (v. 44-45).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jan 26, 2014
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Judas was drawn far more than most of the lost for Christ personally washed Judas' feet and give him as one of the 12 evangelists to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, preach the Gospel in Matt 10.

    "HAVE I not CHOSEN the 12" is the statement in John 6. It does not say "Have I not chosen the 11 but the 12th I have not chosen, have not drawn".

    In fact Judas is NOT one of the disciples that LEAVE in John6.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Jan 26, 2014
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Only because you limit and then reject all of the contextual evidence. Of course you are forced to that, because if you do not your whole system collapes. However, to you readers who have objective minds, it is simple to see that John 6:65 is given as the reason for unbelief of "some" in verse 64. This is so clear but this must be adamantly resisted and rejected at all costs by Bob and all Arminians or their ship sinks.

    The fact that the Acua Indians of Ecudor never heard of the gospel, the cross or Christ prior to 1951 and never had friendly relationships with Christian missionaries until 1958 prove that "all" in John 12:32 cannot possibly mean all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION but only all men WITHOUT DISTINCTION of race, gender or social standing. The Northwest American Indians never heard of Christ, the cross or the gospel until 1819 when missionaries first came to that indigenous people. Both of these indians of North and South American believed in spiritism, were pantheists and polytheists more akin to Hindooism.

    In addition, hearing and being MENTALLY persuaded to confess the gospel does not mean the Father has drawn them as John 6:64-65 proves without a shadow of a doubt. The drawing of the Father is INTERNAL revelation in the heart (2 Cor. 4:6). The general call of the gospel brings in "every kind" both "good and bad" (Mt. 13:47-48) but drawing by the Father is instruction IN THE HEART that involves writing the law upon the heart, thus transforming the heart from "enmity against God" to desiring to please God.




    Actually it does say all that the Father draws will come as drawing in John 6:44 is Biblically defined by Christ as being "taught of God" in John 6:45. The Biblical definition is taken from Isaiah 54:13 AND Jeremiah 31:33-34 and is restricted to the covenant children of God - and all taught by God according to this Biblical definition will know God and God will claim as His children "from the least to the greatest" that have been thus taught.

    Christ makes a statement (v. 44) and then backs up that statement with Scripture (v. 45). Thus "all" is defined within the context of the NEW COVENANT regardless if it is applied to the promised children among the Israelites or the promised children among the Gentiles (Heb. 8, 10).

    Of course, Bob and all Arminians must reject the BIBLICAL CONTEXT in which Christ defines "all" in John 6:45.

    It is a highly qualified list.


    Bob is intentionally abusing the text. In John 6:39 "gives" is present tense while "shall come" is future tense and so grammatically the stated cause of becoming a believer through coming to Christ is due to be given. Hence, the Father gives a people to the Son in order to come to him for salvation. That is exactly what John 17:2 explcitly states in terms of cause and effect. Of course Bob and Arminians must deny the language and repudiate the conclusions of the grammar.

    This is absolutely contradictory to the grammar of the text. The grammatical consequence of "give" and "draw" by the Father is coming to Chirst. This cannot be denied in John 6:44 that coming is the consequence of being drawn and thus being drawn is the cause. Neither can this be denied in John 6:37-39 as the grammatical cause for coming to Christ is first being drawn as "draw" is found in the present tense but "shall come' is future tense grammatically demanding that being given is the stated grammatical cause for coming. Bob is reversing this and thus repudiating the Holy Spirit's own choice of syntax.

    This is just a blatant contradiction of the words of Christ. Both "draw" and "give" are presented as the stated grammatical cause for coming to Christ. No amount of denial by Bob can change the future tense "shall come" to be a past tense and thus coming the cause of being given in verse 37. No amount of repudiation by Bob can make coming the cause of being drawn in verse 44. However, this is the position Bob is FORCED by his own soteriology to defend and so he will contine to blatantly contradict the grammar.




    Only to those willfully blind and refuse to see that this is precisely the intent of John 6:65 and the words "therefore I said unto you" as this is blatantly clear this is explanatory why those in verse 64 are in unbelief then and from the beginning of their profession. However again, Bob and Arminians are FORCED to deny the obvious.


    .

    This Bob's and all Arminians only argument to escape the obvious intent of John 6:64-65. However, as we have historically shown their interpretation of "all men" being all WITHOUT EXCEPTION is false as we can historically document whole cultures of generations of men who died never having heard the name of Jesus, never heard about the cross and never heard the gospel. There are multitude of documented historical cases beginning in the first century where the name of Christ had never been heard among whom previous generations died never hearing the gospel, never hearing of the cross or the name of Christ.


    Bottom line, Bob's arguments are as only good as the limitations in which he places them. His problem is that he must ignore historical evidence, Biblical grammar and the obvious to defend his position.
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2014
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    This being drawn to Him, and coming to Him if you want to, isn't what Jesus stated in John 6, as others have alluded to. Jesus said all that my Father giveth me, comes unto Me. He states this in the affirmative.
     
    #10 convicted1, Jan 26, 2014
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, but Jesus nowhere says all that are drawn shall come to him. You can't show it.

    There are many scriptures that show God calling and drawing men who do not come;

    Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

    Here God is calling men and stretching out his hands to them, but they refuse to come. Are you saying God calling and stretching his hands out to them is not drawing?

    Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
    17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

    Here Jesus again shows God calls to men, and he compares this calling or drawing to piping music which entices men to dance, but they would not dance. Are you saying this is not God trying to draw men?

    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Here Jesus compares himself to a mother hen who attempts to gather her chicks under her wings, but they would not come. Is this not an attempt to draw men?

    Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

    Here Jesus compares God to a king who repeatedly goes out and calls and bids people to come to the wedding of his son, but they would not come. Is this not God attempting to draw men?

    You have to be completely intellectually dishonest to deny that the scriptures repeatedly show God attempting to draw men, but they refuse to come. There is no other excuse.
     
    #11 Winman, Jan 26, 2014
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  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You have quoted John 6 regarding those that the Father "Giveth Christ" - and i have agreed that this is a special case.

    But you are mixing it in with those the Father "DRAWS to him" and Christ stated explicitly "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32. You cannot mix the two - John 6 never does.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Jan 26, 2014
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is an absolute false interpretation of John 12:32 and I have historically documented it to be a false interpretation and yet Bob repeats the lie. Those saved among the Auca tribe in Ecuador in the middle 1950's had father's, grandfathers and greatgrandfathers who lived and died who never heard the gospel, never heard the name of Christ, never heard of the cross. This has been historically documented by those saved among them. The same has been documented in various cultures.

    Hence, it is a lie to say that John 12:32 means "all men" without exception WILL BE drawn to the cross! However, the interpretation that John 12:32 means "all men" without distinction of race, gender and status is both Biblicallly and historically true and most importantly supports the immediate context which introduces "Greeks" seeking Christ (vv. 19-24).

    Why he repeats an interpretation that can be so eaisly disproven can only be due to theological dogma rather than historical and Biblical fact.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2014
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    He is referring to the contextual "all" in John 6:37-39 which denies all your OUTSIDE Biblical texts, all of which have NOTHING to do with this contextual "all" because NONE in this "all" fail to come to Christ whereas in the contexts you try to force into John 6 do have those who do not come.

    However, the "all" - every single one of this "all" are given and "shall" come to Christ and NOT ONE SHALL BE LOST. Therefore, in regard to this "all" there is no "coming IF you want to" but might not! John 6:37 demands all given "shall" come and John 6:49 demands all given NONE are lost. NO, if, but or and's.

    Moreover, grammatically "give" is PRESENT TENSE whereas "shall come' is FUTURE TENSE and therefore the grammatical stated cause for coming to Christ is previous being given by the Father to the son for the very purpose that all "shall" come and "NONE" shall be lost but "all" shall be raised up in the last day.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2014
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    John 6:45 clearly shows who is drawn, it is all men who hear the gospel.

    Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Jesus said no man can come to him unless drawn, and in verse 45 he shows how this is accomplished. Men are drawn when they hear the word of God.

    Nevertheless, the man is responsible to hear and learn, so only those men who sincerely listen and learn from God shall come to Jesus.

    This is shown in Matthew 22:

    Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

    These men heard the call of God, they were drawn, but they did not come. Why? the first men simply refused to listen, the second group "made light of it", they did not take the calling and message as serious. They did not believe.

    Again, a person has to be intellectually dishonest to deny that the scriptures show many examples of men being called and drawn, but they refuse to come.
     
    #15 Winman, Jan 26, 2014
  16. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Can anyone come to Christ w/o hearing about Him? It's an honest question I ask.
     
    #16 convicted1, Jan 26, 2014
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    No, and this is what Paul implies in Romans 10:14;

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Paul asked how any person can believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him. He did not mention any other obstacle to believing which shows man's inability is due to lack of knowledge and ignorance, not an inability to believe the gospel when they hear it.

    All men are drawn when they hear the gospel, many a man has admitted the gospel pulled and tugged on his heart, sometimes for years before he finally surrendered to God's drawing.

    In fact Willis, wasn't this YOUR testimony?
     
    #17 Winman, Jan 26, 2014
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Thank you for this post.

    Now, has everyone ever born heard the name of Jesus Christ?
     
    #18 convicted1, Jan 26, 2014
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    double post
     
    #19 Winman, Jan 26, 2014
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  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    No, and that is why we are commanded to go and teach all nations. And of course, new people are born every day who need to hear the gospel.

    This does not negate that John 12:32 teaches that if Jesus be lifted up, he will draw all men to him. That is the gospel, Jesus dying for our sins and rising from the dead. But a man has to hear to be drawn.
     
    #20 Winman, Jan 26, 2014
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