"given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

[convicted1]

No, and that is why we are commanded to go and teach all nations. And of course, new people are born every day who need to hear the gospel.

This does not negate that John 12:32 teaches that if Jesus be lifted up, he will draw all men to him. That is the gospel, Jesus dying for our sins and rising from the dead. But a man has to hear to be drawn.

Thank you again for your post(though it is a double post{you must have thought it was so good, it needed to be posted twice...:smilewinkgrin:}).

Okay, so if not everyone has heard the name of Jesus Christ, and there's no way one can come to Him who knows nothing about Him....I agree with you here…how then can you reconcile John 12:32 with all being drawn to Him, if they never heard of Him, and none can be drawn to Him, who never heard about Him??

 

[Winman]

Thank you again for your post(though it is a double post{you must have thought it was so good, it needed to be posted twice...:smilewinkgrin:}).

Okay, so if not everyone has heard the name of Jesus Christ, and there's no way one can come to Him who knows nothing about Him....I agree with you here…how then can you reconcile John 12:32 with all being drawn to Him, if they never heard of Him, and none can be drawn to Him, who never heard about Him??

I simply believe that every man who hears the gospel is drawn by it. As I said before, many persons will tell you the gospel pulled and tugged at their heart, sometimes for years before they finally surrendered and accepted Christ.

And I asked you if that wasn't your very experience?

Please answer, isn't this your experience? You were pulled and tugged by the gospel for a period of time before you trusted Christ?

Please answer this question.

 

[convicted1]

I simply believe that every man who hears the gospel is drawn by it. As I said before, many persons will tell you the gospel pulled and tugged at their heart, sometimes for years before they finally surrendered and accepted Christ.

And I asked you if that wasn't your very experience?

Please answer, isn't this your experience? You were pulled and tugged by the gospel for a period of time before you trusted Christ?

Please answer this question.

Yes, absolutely. However, I heard it for years and wanted nothing to do with Him. There came a time in my life when He "overtook" me, and changed my desires, my "want to's". That's another subject and I don't to derail this thread, some get "touchy" on here, ya know?


Now, you said you "believe everyone who hears the gospel is drawn" and yet you conceded that not everyone has heard of Jesus Christ...and I agree you can't know about something/someone you know nothing about. So, by your own admission, not every person has heard about Jesus Christ, how can Jesus Christ draw all men when it's contrary to what you just stated your beliefs are????

 

[The Biblicist]

John 6:45 clearly shows who is drawn, it is all men who hear the gospel.

You have moved from "all men" in John 12:32 meaning "all men without exception" to "all men" who actually hear the gospel. Thus this is an admission that John 12:32 and the Arminian interpretation "all men" without exception is erroneous, just as the historical evidence proves that not all men without exception have heard the gospel.

Another problem with your interpetation is that John 6:64-65 proves that even "some" who have heard, learned and professed the gospel have not been drawn by the Father and thus one can respond to the EXTERNAL gospel call and yet never have been drawn by the Father.

Again, a person has to be intellectually dishonest to deny that the scriptures show many examples of men being called and drawn, but they refuse to come.

However, my comment was about your response to Convicted1 statement concerning John 6:37-39 and "given" not John 6:44-45 and "draw." You have changed the subject. Why? Because your critique of his statement about being given is wrong, that is why!

 

[Winman]

Yes, absolutely. However, I heard it for years and wanted nothing to do with Him. There came a time in my life when He "overtook" me, and changed my desires, my "want to's". That's another subject and I don't to derail this thread, some get "touchy" on here, ya know?


Now, you said you "believe everyone who hears the gospel is drawn" and yet you conceded that not everyone has heard of Jesus Christ...and I agree you can't know about something/someone you know nothing about. So, by your own admission, not every person has heard about Jesus Christ, how can Jesus Christ draw all men when it's contrary to what you just stated your beliefs are????

OK Willis, this is not difficult. I believe John 12:32 means all men who hear the gospel.

In other words, if you hear the gospel, it is going to draw you. It is a powerful message, Jesus dying to save you from your sins. Many a hardened sinner has broke down in tears hearing this message as Mary in the scriptures who washed Jesus's feet with her hair.

That said, a man can resist. Paul heard the gospel when Stephen preached, but he resisted that day. Later, when Jesus appeared to him, Jesus said that Paul was kicking against the pricks. He was being tugged and drawn by Jesus, but he was resisting. Fortunately, Paul surrendered to Jesus that day.

But not all men surrender and trust Christ. Agrippa confessed he was almost persuaded to become a Christian, but he resisted. We have no record that he ever accepted Christ after that. Nevertheless, he confessed he was drawn by the gospel.

Now, have I explained it well enough for you, or are you going to continue to ask me more and more questions?

 

[The Biblicist]

I simply believe that every man who hears the gospel is drawn by it.

So do we! However, John 6:64-65 proves that not all drawn by the Gospel are drawn by the Father and therein lies your problem. The Gospel calls all that hear it and it draws in both the "good and the bad" (Mt. 13:46-47).

However, "all" that the Father draw's (Jn. 6:45a) according to the prophetic context are all those given to Christ or all the children of the new covenant "from the least to the greatest" (Isa. 54:13 with Jer. 31:33-34 and Heb. 8, 10). ALL who are given to the Son by the Father do in fact come and none can come without being drawn by the Father and thus all given are all drawn and therefore inclusive in being given is drawing by the Father. Therein lies your problem.

 

[Winman]

So do we! However, John 6:64-65 proves that not all drawn by the Gospel are drawn by the Father and therein lies your problem. The Gospel calls all that hear it and it draws in both the "good and the bad" (Mt. 13:46-47).

However, "all" that the Father draw's (Jn. 6:45a) according to the prophetic context are all those given to Christ or all the children of the new covenant "from the least to the greatest" (Isa. 54:13 with Jer. 31:33-34 and Heb. 8, 10). ALL who are given to the Son by the Father do in fact come and none can come without being drawn by the Father and thus all given are all drawn and therefore inclusive in being given is drawing by the Father. Therein lies your problem.

No, you believe all that are drawn will come to Jesus when that is NEVER taught in scripture. Many people who were drawn never come to Jesus such as king Agrippa who admitted he was almost persuaded to become a Christian.

I have already showed numerous passages were men called and bid by God refused to come, even when God stretched out his hands to them.

A person must be intellectually dishonest to deny that many people are drawn in the scriptures that do not come to Jesus. Jesus himself lamented over Jerusalem, saying how many times he would have "gathered" them as a hen gathers her chicks, and they would not come.

You can endlessly insist that all drawn come, and you will be endlessly in error.

 

[Winman]

You have moved from "all men" in John 12:32 meaning "all men without exception" to "all men" who actually hear the gospel. Thus this is an admission that John 12:32 and the Arminian interpretation "all men" without exception is erroneous, just as the historical evidence proves that not all men without exception have heard the gospel.

Another problem with your interpetation is that John 6:64-65 proves that even "some" who have heard, learned and professed the gospel have not been drawn by the Father and thus one can respond to the EXTERNAL gospel call and yet never have been drawn by the Father.

I haven't moved anywhere, I have quoted Romans 10:14 probably hundreds of times to prove a person must hear of Jesus to believe. And of course, you must hear of Jesus to be drawn.

Hebrews 6 shows a man can be enlightened a great deal about the gospel, can taste the good word of God and the world to come and yet turn away in unbelief.

Nevertheless, a man must hear and learn from the Father to come to Jesus. Those who sincerely listen, learn, and believe the word of God will come to Jesus.

Often when the scriptures say "hear" it is a synonym for believing. You can hear a message and not believe it, or you can hear a message and believe it.

Jesus said the time was coming and now is, when the dead would hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. "Hear" here means to believe. It is not enough to simply audibly hear the word of God, you have to believe it.

However, my comment was about your response to Convicted1 statement concerning John 6:37-39 and "given" not John 6:44-45 and "draw." You have changed the subject. Why? Because your critique of his statement about being given is wrong, that is why!

I believe those "given" are those persons God in his foreknowledge knows will believe the gospel when they hear it.

John 6:65 is not speaking of persons given, it is speaking of "it" being given, which is the word of God shown in vs. 63. I also showed you in John 17 where Jesus plainly tells us he gave the words the Father gave to him to his disciples.

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Sorry for the extreme emphasis, but you do not pay attention well.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus told the parable of fishers casting a net and bringing fish to the shore. They then throw the bad away and keep the good(Matthew 13:47,48). That is the work of the gospel. The gospel call goes to all externally who hear it. However, it has no effect internally unless they have been quickened by God, given ears to hear with, eyes to see with, and a new fleshly heart.

 

[convicted1]

OK Willis, this is not difficult. I believe John 12:32 means all men who hear the gospel.

In other words, if you hear the gospel, it is going to draw you. It is a powerful message, Jesus dying to save you from your sins. Many a hardened sinner has broke down in tears hearing this message as Mary in the scriptures who washed Jesus's feet with her hair.

That said, a man can resist. Paul heard the gospel when Stephen preached, but he resisted that day. Later, when Jesus appeared to him, Jesus said that Paul was kicking against the pricks. He was being tugged and drawn by Jesus, but he was resisting. Fortunately, Paul surrendered to Jesus that day.

But not all men surrender and trust Christ. Agrippa confessed he was almost persuaded to become a Christian, but he resisted. We have no record that he ever accepted Christ after that. Nevertheless, he confessed he was drawn by the gospel.

Now, have I explained it well enough for you, or are you going to continue to ask me more and more questions?

So then all doesn't really mean all, does it? I mean a worldwide, all ever born "all". So, all doesn't always me all, as in all mankind of all time...

 

[Winman]

Jesus told the parable of fishers casting a net and bringing fish to the shore. They then throw the bad away and keep the good(Matthew 13:47,48). That is the work of the gospel. The gospel call goes to all externally who hear it. However, it has no effect internally unless they have been quickened by God, given ears to hear with, eyes to see with, and a new fleshly heart.

Excellent job Willis, you have just proved from scripture that not all that are drawn will be saved. :thumbsup:

You have destroyed Biblicist's view. Congratulations.

 

[convicted1]

Excellent job Willis, you have just proved from scripture that not all that are drawn will be saved. :thumbsup:

You have destroyed Biblicist's view. Congratulations.

No Brother. The gospel call is for everyone, yet not everyone who hears it has "ears to hear" with. The gospel is rejected by the goats, but the sheep will come when He calls...

 

[BobRyan]

No Brother. The gospel call is for everyone, yet not everyone who hears it has "ears to hear" with. The gospel is rejected by the goats, but the sheep will come when He calls...

The goats can indeed reject the drawing - but if there is no drawing - no out reach - no appeal - then they would have nothing to reject.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

No Brother. The gospel call is for everyone, yet not everyone who hears it has "ears to hear" with. The gospel is rejected by the goats, but the sheep will come when He calls...

Give me a break Willis, you can't claim that a fish that was pulled to shore in a net was not drawn.

Good grief, you are not being reasonable now.

As I have said several times now, you have to be intellectually dishonest to deny the scriptures show people are drawn who do not come to Christ.

You are better than this Willis.

 

[BobRyan]

Now, you said you "believe everyone who hears the gospel is drawn" and yet you conceded that not everyone has heard of Jesus Christ...and I agree you can't know about something/someone you know nothing about. So, by your own admission, not every person has heard about Jesus Christ, how can Jesus Christ draw all men when it's contrary to what you just stated your beliefs are????

in Romans 2:13-16 even those with no access at all are drawn - are reached by God.

in Romans 10 those with no access to scripture - but with access to nature are drawn.

in Romans 1 we are told that those who reject this world-wide drawing of God are "without excuse" for they see in nature the "invisible attributes of God".

In James 4:17 we are informed that the one who "knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin'.

Paul says that God overlooks times of ignorance and calls all men everywhere to repent.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Excellent job Willis, you have just proved from scripture that not all that are drawn will be saved. :thumbsup:

You have destroyed Biblicist's view. Congratulations.

HOw is that? I am the one who introduced that very parable to explain my position that the gospel calls all whose physical ears hear it both "good" and "bad." With that very parable I pointed out that not all who respond to the gospel call have been drawn by the Father as illustrated in John 6:64-65.

Those in John 6:64 had heard the gospel, been taught the gospel and responded by making a profession and submitting to baptism - thus becoming "his disciples" and yet they had never been drawn by the Father - Jn. 6:65. You can deny the obvious (and you will) but it does not change the fact that verse 65 is given as a direct explanation for the unbelief of those in verse 64.

 

[BobRyan]

At no point does John 6:64-65 claim that "not all are drawn" by the Father to Christ. The effort to get the text to say that consists of inferences (possibly in the extreme) and liberties with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

No, you believe all that are drawn will come to Jesus when that is NEVER taught in scripture.

I believe I know what I believe and don't believe better than you! I believe the gospel calls all that are physically hearing it which brings in both "good" and "bad" (Mt. 13:46-47). However, those drawn by the gospel are not equal to whom the Father draws as demonstrated by John 6:64-65. Humans can bring the gospel UNTO you but only God can make the gospel a reality IN you and that is the difference.

Many people who were drawn never come to Jesus such as king Agrippa who admitted he was almost persuaded to become a Christian.

Have you now changed your definition of "draw"? Previously you fellas defined "draw" as inseparable from physically hearing the gospel by other men who teach what it means and use persuasion to convince men. Are uou saying now, that Paul never preached the gospel to Agrippa? Never used perusasion? How then was "almost persuaded"?????

I have already showed numerous passages were men called and bid by God refused to come, even when God stretched out his hands to them.

Again you have changed the discussion from being given to being drawn. Why? Because your statement in reference to being "given" has been p roven false as NONE given fail to effectually come in faith to Christ and none are lost.

However, the scriptures are clear that the gospel call does not equal the Father drawing men. The gospel is an OUTWARD call that men resist and that brings in both "good" and "evil." However, "all" whom the Father draws/teaches (Jn. 6:45a) as the Old Testament quotations demand refers only to "children of God" by NEW covenant relationship (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34 with Heb. 8, 10) inclusive of both the JEWISH and GENTILE promised children (Rom. 9;24). You can't deal with the scriptures quoted by Christ as those scriptures defines "all" to be the new covenant children of God - ooops there goes another rubber tree down!

A person must be intellectually dishonest to deny that many people are drawn in the scriptures that do not come to Jesus.

.

The only intellectual dishonesty is by those who simply ignore not all who are drawn by the Gospel are drawn by the Father - Jn. 6:64-65 - but "all" who are drawn by the Father are his "children" according to the "new Covenant" people of God.

Jesus himself lamented over Jerusalem, saying how many times he would have "gathered" them as a hen gathers her chicks, and they would not come

As in Acts 7:51 when this OUTWARD CALL of the gospel comes in "word only" it is always resisted and never attended by genuine gospel conversion - Jn. 6:64-65

 

[BobRyan]

Actually it does say all that the Father draws will come as drawing in John 6:44

No not in John 6:44 do we find "all that the Father draws will come"

Not in John 6:45 either do we find "all that the Father draws will come"

To find that statement - you are quoting "you".

is Biblically defined by Christ as being "taught of God" in John 6:45. The Biblical definition is taken from Isaiah 54:13 AND Jeremiah 31:33-34 and is restricted to the covenant children of God

It is true that this is the Jer 31:31-33 New Covenant.

But is it not true that the Drawing of the Father is limited to those under the New Covenant and such a limit is never stated in all of John 6.

For that limit - we would need to quote "you".

Your claim is limited to inferences and liberties with the text - and the unproven claim on your part that those who refuse to take those same liberties with the text and to agree with your creative inferences are not paying attention to context.

I beg to differ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Christ is then fully consistent when he says "no man can come to me EXCEPT the Father draw him", for Christ also says "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32

This Bob's and all Arminians only argument

It is called "letting the Bible interpret the Bible". In this case it is Christ speak to the subject of "Drawing" and Christ says He draws "ALL mankind to himself" John 12:32.

You were looking for something in John 6 that says "The Father does NOT Draw all mankind to Christ" and you did not find it apart from instances of you quoting you to get that statement into the post.

But that is merely inference on your part -- it is not actually in the text.

Meanwhile John 12:32 is not inference - rather it is actually IN the text.

Thus your position requires denying what is IN the text then adding inferences that are NOT in the text.

Why would we go for that??

Makes no sense to me.

to escape the obvious intent of John 6:64-65. However, as we have historically shown their interpretation of "all men" being all WITHOUT EXCEPTION is false as we can historically document whole cultures of generations of men who died never having heard the name of Jesus,

Yet "another" inference and liberty with the text. At NO POINT does John 12 Or John 6 or any other text state that the DRAWING of God is limited to those who "hear the name of Jesus".

So once again the salient point of your argument is "assumed" and "inferred" rather than demonstrated "in the text". Then you offer your own inferences, your own assumptions "as proof" as in the case above.

Surely we would all "notice" that problem would we not?

Notice that in Romans 2:13-16, 27-29 it is not "hear the name of Christ" that is the source - but rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit AND that which is done "instinctively" when it comes to those with no access to the Word of God at all. And in Romans 10 it is the voice of nature itself that reaches all mankind for Christ.

in Christ,

Bob