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Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014.

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  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    That's funny! I saw the same thing (Biblicist not seeming to understand the differences in nature between God and man) and came on to point out how ridiculous his arguments was, but you practically took the words out of mouth with that post.

    Get a clue why you are messed with that argument up Biblicist:

    ;)
     
    #241 Benjamin, Feb 2, 2014
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, it does not trap me because MOTIVE is essential to the nature of God as it is to the nature of man. MOTIVE determines the moral character of God's nature just as it defines and determines the moral character of God's nature. The difference is that God's nature is IMMUTABLE rather than a difference in the nature of the will.

    FALLEN man nature does not have the capacity to choose good from a right motive which is for the glory of God. So the fallen nature of man is just as immutable in unholiness as the nature of God is immutable in holiness. The fly in your ointment is that you are presuming your own position into this argument, which is that you believe fallen man is capable of choosing good and thus doing good. However, that is the very point we are debating and yet you assume it to be a basis for your argument in proving my position wrong.

    It is only self-defeating IF I take YOUR position in this argumentation. You make your own position the basis of your argument to prove that man can choose good and thus do good. However, that is the very issue we are debating and which you must first prove to be true.

    However, there can be no debate that mankind are FALLEN and are SINNERS and thus they are not by nature holy or immutably holy and yet that is the position you must defend in order to claim they can choose and do good as even Jesus says that figs cannot come from a thorn bush and the fruit only reveals the nature of the tree and thus good fruits cannot come from a tree evil by nature.

    So your whole argumentation is circular reasoning, assuming the truth of your own position in the very arguments you make.
     
    #242 The Biblicist, Feb 2, 2014
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Gentlemen, I have to get ready for church services this morning, so please excuse me from this argument until tomorrow. I will be more than happy to take your arguments in the morning.
     
    #243 The Biblicist, Feb 2, 2014
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Here is where Biblicist goes off the tracks. He argues his point of view is fact when much scripture easily refutes his view and proves it cannot be fact.

    Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    Jesus himself said "evil" men can give good gifts, utterly refuting Biblicist's view. Now, Biblicist will make the ridiculous argument that "things" can be good, but that is nonsense. "Things" can neither be good or bad, it is the motive behind them that makes them good or evil. Thus, this scripture proves evil men have the ability to give things with good motives.

    Now, he will try to make another argument that these things are good among men, but not to God, but it was Jesus himself who said these things are good, again refuting Biblicist's view.

    So, Biblicist starts with error and deviates from truth from that point on.
     
    #244 Winman, Feb 2, 2014
  5. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Praise

    The pharisees did many thing, most of the things they did was good.

    It was good motivated by self. To get praise by men, so people will see how good they are.

    They did it for a temporary prize, when we do what we do for God and God alone, it is eternal.

    When we do things for self and it isn't for Jesus Christ to get the praise and glory no matter how good it is it is nothing if it doesn't bring praise to Jesus. It is dirty rags.

    Matthew 6:
    Fasting

    16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

    Treasures in Heaven

    19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


    Luke 11:42
    “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

    No one has been given to Jesus by the Father who do not listen and learn.

    When I came to Jesus I am saved past, present, and future. I have been saved before the foundation of the world the day I came to Jesus when He first called me.

    It is hard for me to fathom and explain because I am not God and can't see as He does being eternal with no beginning or end.
     
    #245 psalms109:31, Feb 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2014
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Yes, it is possible to do good things for wrong motives such as to receive the praise of men, but Jesus was not teaching that every good thing every man does was done with wrong motives and evil. In fact, Jesus is telling people how they can do good things with good motives. This is not teaching inability, but ability.

    Calvinism will take the wrong things the Pharisees were doing and apply it to all men at all times, not what the scriptures were saying at all.
     
    #246 Winman, Feb 3, 2014
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    If we are not doing good for the praise and glory of Jesus is it not doing it with the wrong motives?
     
    #247 psalms109:31, Feb 3, 2014
  8. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Even sinners can do "good" or "right".

    The confusion comes from mistaking the fact that because God doesn't count their right deeds as worthy or meritorious next to God's perfection and infinite Holiness and requirement for sinless-ness that that means it's evil.

    But that doesn't mean it's sin or evil. It just means that their "good-ness" isn't good enough, and never will be.

    Men often do the right thing, and for no reason other than their consciences and their society their parents etc... tell them that this is the right or good thing to do, and they genuinely want to do that which is right. They have no evil motives or wicked intent.

    Decidedly, our own "righteousness" is (by comparison) as filthy rags.....but it's still "righteousness" not sin nor evil. The Scriptures aren't teaching us that doing good is "evil" just because an un-saved person is doing it.

    It is an issue of how a perfect Holy God compares it to meriting his glory.

    If Winman throws a touchdown in a back-yard football game...it's still a touchdown and a "good" play. Now, compared to Peyton Manning, his touchdown pass was as "filthy-rags"... and no one is offering him a $150m dollar contract, but, that's because you are comparing it to Peyton Manning.
    But just because it wasn't a Peyton Manning caliber pass, that doesn't mean it was therefore an interception.

    The error expressed by some here, is thinking that just because God isn't impressed with the right deeds of sinful man, then therefore their right decisions and good deeds are subsequently EVIL. That is not right thinking. It isn't evil....it's still good.
    It's just not a goodness which God is impressed with, and it's not a goodness which will earn you a place in heaven.
     
    #248 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your statement above demonstrates you have a very superficial understanding of sin and righteousness. So let's begin with the basics.

    1. Sin is the trangression of the law - 1 Jn. 2:4
    2. The wages of sin is death - Rom. 3:23

    QUESTION: Do you believe that such a violation can be regarded as "good" or do you believe it must be regarded as "evil" before God? Before men, do you believe it could be regarded relatively "good" in comparison with some other kind of violation (lying versus adultery)???

    3. Transgression of one point in the law equally violates all other points of the law - James 2:10-12

    Supposing you answer that violation of one point of God's law (e.g. lying) is regarded by God as "evil", is it possible according to James that you only violate "one point" (e.g. "lying") without violating every other point of the Law(9 other commandments) and thus are "counted" by God as "evil" in regard to every point? Thus to be a “sinner” in one point is regarded by God to be a “sinner” of every point of God’s Law. When you violate “thou shalt not lie” in God’s sight you have violated all other nine commandments. Since, the Ten Commandments cover your WHOLE LIFE at any given point in time, then to violate one point at any given point in time makes you a violater in God’s sight of the WHOLE LAW at that given point. Therefore, to be regarded as “good” at any given point in time you must keep ALL THE POINTS or the WHOLE LAW in that given point of time. To come short of keeping the whole Law at ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME makes you a “sinner” of the whole Law in that given point of time.

    Thus it is impossible for a person to do a “right” deed in God’s sight without also keeping all other points of the law in that moment of time as they are inseparable in God’s sight.

    This means that the whole law is inseparably undergirded by one underlying common principle, which is violated whenever one point of the law is violated. That one underlying principle is love and thus love for God is required to keep one point and is the necessary motive in choosing any thought, word or action for it to be “good” in God’s sight. This requries a "good" heart as from the heart all thoughts, words and actions are derived (Mt. 15). No sinner has a "good" heart and thus no sinner IS "good" or can "DO" good just as scriptures says (Rom. 3:9-20; Rom. 8:7).

    QUESTION: Is there any given point of time in your whole life that you have KEPT THE WHOLE LAW without violating a single point? Do you know of any human being, except Christ, who at any given point of time kept the whole law?
     
    #249 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
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  10. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #250 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Why must you lower the conversation to this level? I claimed that your understanding of sin and righteous is superficial and then I presented the evidence to support that claim. You ignored the evidence that supported my claim! You offered nothing but accusations and wild assertions in return.

    Please go back to my post and respond to the evidence. I had not finished updating my post when you responded. Go back and read it carefully and provide a substantive response.
     
    #251 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
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  12. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    We're not on the same sheet of music right now....

    Perhaps we can pick this conversation up later.
    Hope yesterday's services were a blessing!
     
    #252 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I'd venture to say not even in the same songbook. :laugh:
     
    #253 convicted1, Feb 3, 2014
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ok Inspector! Yes, servcies were a blessing yesterday.
     
    #254 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
  15. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    O.K. Biblicist....
    Violations are evil....

    But I wasn't talking about any "violations". I was talking about any given single scenario or circumstance wherein someone DOESN'T VIOLATE!!!

    Now, due to that failure to communicate, everything else will become utterly irrelevant:
    "Before men"...of course it's different...
    "Before God"....I happen to know they are equally damning and blameworthy.

    PLEASE don't tell me that that is one of those "basics" you think that I don't understand???

    CURTAIN RAISES:

    Biblicist: (with loving Christ-like concern): "You are a sinner in God's eyes and must repent of your sin or be damned forever."

    I.J. (defensively): "But...I just told a 'little white lie', that's not really a sin is it??? I mean I speed every now and again, but I haven't killed anyone in a drunk-driving incident!!! I haven't committed ADULTERY or anything!!! I only lust every now and again....but that's not adultery!!!"

    Biblicist: (professorially) "Actually, I.J....God's standards are entirely different than man's and God views all sin as equally odious in his sight and similarly damnable. In fact, did you know that Jesus said that even if you look after a woman to lust after her than you have already committed ADULTERY in your heart?"

    I.J. (confounded): "No way Mr. Biblicist!!! You mean God reckons and accounts all sin as equally horrific!....Like even MURDER AND SHOP-LIFTING!!!! :eek:

    Biblicist: "Yes, I.J., even murder vs. shop-lifting.......I see you don't understand the fundamentals and I have to come back to the basics with you..."

    Dim lights
    5-second pause

    Raise lights
    New scene with I.J. on his knees repenting of sin before God, Biblicist lovingly standing with his left hand on his shoulder and right hand raised (clutching a Bible) to God in silent prayer.

    Dim lights and qeue "I am resolved" (in background)

    CLOSE CURTAIN
    Of course....
    but, I was talking about a scenario where one DOESN'T violate, not one wherein one does.
    Not the scenario I was speaking to.

    Don't worry, I'm not a good "listener" as it were either......I'm atrocious actually,
    Me-thinks, you might suffer from that problem too somewhat.
    This is where you are confusing the very BASICS....
    A PERSON is not "good" or "righteous" since even if they keep one point but fail in others they are condemned...that's God's standard.

    But the DEED ITSELF is now being confused by you as being INHERENTLY EVIL even though it was following God's law, and not breaking it...
    The PERSON isn't "good" (they aren't perfect)
    But, at any given time, you are confusing the point that since the PERSON isn't "good" that any given time they OBEY God, you want to call it evil.
    God's definition of a PERSON who is "good" demands obedience to all points. And everyone on B.B. knows that there are no good persons....Because EVERYONE has violated at least one of those points at some time or other.
    Right....and evil PERSON is coming short of obedience to ALL POINTS.
    But that doesn't render any one time someone OBEYS GOD'S LAW as sinning for doing it....
    Absolutely....
    And I'm dead-on right for it.

    Because I don't confuse any individual "deed" done as the "person" (who is a sinner) doing it.
    They are two distinct things...the person and the individual deed.
     
    #255 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
  16. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    YAY!!!! Ours were good too!
     
    #256 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
  17. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    Quite peanut-gallery!
    'fore I throw my nanner at you!!!!!
     
    #257 Inspector Javert, Feb 3, 2014
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is the point! James is denying they are keeping that one point unless all points are kept. This means the whole law is inseparably connected by one underlying principle and thus if one point is violated every point is violated and if one point is kept then every point is kept. That one underlying principle is love for God - that is the principle motive which is necessarily involved to regard any point as kept in God's sight - 1 Cor. 10:31. It is the NECESSARY HEART MOTIVE that reverses Matthew 15:19

    19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    Notice, the first item is "evil thoughts" which necessarily demands that the heart is "evil". If the fallen man's heart was not "evil" there would be no need for God to give a "new" heart. If the "heart" is evil then the fruits are evil. The heart is evil BECAUSE it operates according to the "law of sin" instead of love for God or "the glory of God."
     
    #258 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your view regards the "deed" as "good" considered only a VISIBLE CONFIRMATION to the law. However, God does not define a "deed" as good soley by VISIBLE CONFIRMATION to the law just as God does not define a person as good solely by VISIBLE CONFIRMATION to the law. One can be by visible confirmation a WHITE SEPLECHURE or a WHITE CUP while inwardly stinking. God does not separate the VISIBLE ACT from the motive and condition of the heart. The fruit is only regarded as "good" by God IF the tree is regarded as "good" by God. God looks on the heart to judge the deed as good or evil!

    What God considers in the heart to judge the deed good or evil is the MOTIVE behind the deed. If the MOTIVE is not for the "glory of God" (I Cor. 10:31) God judges the deed as sinful becuase the motive "comes short of the glory of God."
     
    #259 The Biblicist, Feb 3, 2014
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The nice thing is, we don't have to speculate what is true or not, we have the scriptures to tell us God's truth. And God's truth tells us men are able to do good.

    Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    Jesus himself said evil men know how to do good. They can give good gifts to their children. Not everything men do is evil as Biblicist would like to falsely teach.

    If Biblicist had his way, he would interpret this verse to say the exact opposite of what it is plainly saying.

    This is real simple, do you believe what the word of God says, or do you believe someone who is trying to tell you this scripture does not mean what it plainly says?

    Make your choice.
     
    #260 Winman, Feb 3, 2014
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