Featured "given" is inclusive of "draw" in John 6

So when Jesus said that thsoe who were not of His were children of the Devil, and that sinners, all of us, were dominated and mastered over by our sin natures, and that ONLY thsoe whom he freed were free indeed< he either lied , made a mistake, or ignorant of the truth?

 

Unless you have a changed nature, one suitable for heaven, then you are not one of His own!

 

I've already shown you that yyou do not know what you are talking about.

Jesus NEVER said evil people can do moral good. The verse you are abusing to try to prove that he did CLEARLY says that evil people give useful, helpful gifts to their children.

I don't know why you are incapable of learning that.

Jesus actually DID say that good fruit CANNOT come from an evil tree.

There is the ACTUAL Word of God and then there is the horrific twisting of it by Winman.

 

John 7:18
Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Jesus the Son of man did good because He gave the praise and glory to the Father.

We can do no good apart from Jesus Christ only in Him so He gets the glory apart from the body of Christ we can produce no good fruit.

John 15

The Vine and the Branches

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

 

Could you please show the actual scriptures you are speaking of here? You seem to always forget to do that for some reason.

 

Total rubbish, Jesus asked what father would give his child who asked for bread a stone, or if he asked for a fish would give him a serpent, or if he asked for an egg would give him a scorpion?

The child is hungry and needs something to eat, the father is giving the child something they truly need out of real concern and care for their child. If they gave a stone, or a serpent, or a scorpion that would be evil.

These are absolutely examples of moral good whether you admit it or not.

And I have already shown several times that Jesus showed a man can determine whether he is a good tree or corrupt tree.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The words "either make" and "or else make" show that men have both the option and ability to determine which kind of tree they are, a good tree that produces good fruit, or a corrupt tree that produces only corrupt fruit.

You probably don't hear that verse in Reformed churches very often.

 

I don't see how this article helps Willis. It says you must have faith to be saved, something you are constantly told you cannot do in Reformed theology. How are you to believe in Jesus when you can"t?? That would trouble me if I were a Calvinist.

And how can I know I have REAL saving faith? According to Reformed theology, I cannot even understand what real saving faith is. That would trouble me if I were a Calvinist too.

In fact, Calvinists often ask these very questions, Calvinists are known for having serious doubts about their salvation.

Here is a quote from a Calvinist writer himself;

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/

When you spend all your time teaching folks DOUBT, it is very difficult to find faith and assurance Willis.

But I am sure none of these questions ever troubles you.

 

NONE have EVER done good works acceptable in eyes of God except Jesus!

NT believer was right by their good works, none of us now either!

 

31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word [j]has no place in you. 38 I speak the things which I have seen [k]with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but [l]He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand [m]what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of [o]lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced [p]to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [q]was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [r]hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 8:31-58 NASB

 

Do you even read the Bible? There are many examples of persons doing good in God's eyes.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God called Job a "perfect and upright man, that feared God, and hated evil".

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah was just and perfect, and walked with God.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter, speaking of Cornelius said he feared God, did righteous works, and was accepted with God.

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

The scriptures say Barnabas was a good man and full of the Holy Ghost and faith.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

John the Baptist's parents, Zacharias and Elizabeth were both righteous before God and walked in all the commandments and ordinances blameless.

You need to lay off the false teachings of Calvinism and read your Bible once in awhile.

 

Your argument is ridiculous and easily refuted by the passage itself.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Jesus asks the question, what man is there of you, if his son asks for bread because he is hungry, would give him a stone? A caring and loving father would certainly give his child bread if they were hungry. And evil person might give them a stone.

Then Jesus repeats this example, if a child asks their father for a fish, would his father give him a serpent? Of course not, because a father loves his children and considers their welfare.

And a third time Jesus repeats and asks if a son asks his father for an egg, would he give him a scorpion? No good father would do this, only an evil person would give a scorpion to his son who asked for an egg.

So, it is absolutely OBVIOUS that Jesus is showing evil men can do good acts. They can care for their children and give them what they need out of good motives.

But the real point is, if evil men care about their children and do good for them, how much more shall our heavenly Father do for those who come to him in faith? He is far greater than our earthly parents and cares more about our welfare than even our earthly father and mother.

You are trying to play word games, only a fool would fall for your BOGUS argument.

You guys just can't make it without twisting and perverting scripture can you?

 

Your argument is ridiculous and easily refuted by the passage itself.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Jesus asks the question, what man is there of you, if his son asks for bread because he is hungry, would give him a stone? A caring and loving father would certainly give his child bread if they were hungry. An evil person might give them a stone.

Then Jesus repeats this example, if a child asks their father for a fish, would his father give him a serpent? Of course not, because a father loves his children and considers their welfare.

And a third time Jesus repeats and asks if a son asks his father for an egg, would he give him a scorpion? No good father would do this, only an evil person would give a scorpion to his son who asked for an egg.

So, it is absolutely OBVIOUS that Jesus is showing evil men can do good acts. They can care for their children and give them what they need out of good motives.

But the real point is, if evil men care about their children and do good for them, how much more shall our heavenly Father do for those who come to him in faith? He is far greater than our earthly parents and cares more about our welfare than even our earthly father and mother.

You are trying to play word games, only a fool would fall for your BOGUS argument.

You guys just can't make it without twisting and perverting scripture can you?

 

Biblicist just can't stand that word "good" in Mat 7:11 and Luke 11:13. He wants that word to be "evil". He wants scripture to say that evil men can only give "evil" gifts to their children.

Unfortunately, the word of God says "good" gifts. Yes, all men are evil, all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is no just man who does good and has not sinned. Nevertheless, evil men can do individual good works such as Cornelius who was not saved, and did not have the Holy Ghost, yet the angel that appeared to him said his prayers and alms had come up for a memorial before God. Later Peter said that Cornelius worked "righteousness".

Biblicist can't handle this, because he KNOWS this refutes Total Inability and his beloved Calvinism will collapse like the house of cards it is.

No man can merit eternal life, all men are sinners, but men can do individual acts of goodness that are even accepted by God.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

No, Winman. You said that the "gifts" were morally good things.

They were not.

And as far as feeding your own children and slipping your thumbs under your lapel like that's some noble deed...

CROCODILES feed their own children!!
WOLVES feed their own children!!!

This is not moral good or crocodiles are morally good.

This is simply human nature just as it is crocodile nature to feed their young.

You are the worst handler of scripture I have ever seen. I don't think you have EVER interpreted a scripture properly in your life!

You missed the WHOLE POINT of that passage!