Featured Calvinism provides the basis for OSAS

Agreed.

And in that context Lucifer in his sinless state had lots of Love so also Adam and Eve in their sinless state. No taint of selfishness from the start - yet at some point they make a "bad choice". If we argue that they were created with defective love and that this is why they ultimately make a bad choice in the future - then we go back to the Calvinist argument.

In the Arminian model you can make a very good choice and be a very loving person - and then later make "another choice" that is not so pure.

By including all of the future in the action - you are basically arguing that a single choice today is also a choice for every future day and that in the future I have no choice but to return to my choice today.

I believe for example that many many Marriages begin with true love - but decades later "someone makes a bad choice".

in Christ,

Bob

 

I think both Arminians and Calvinists would agree that there are those who joined the church for wrong motives and were never saved to start with. In that case it is "no change" whether they choose to remain affiliated or not - they were never saved.

But Romans 11 does not make that case nor does Matt 18. Both of them point to the fully forgiven saved state.

In Matt 18 Christ said "so shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive from the heart" -- He does not say "so shall my Father do to you if you are lost and were never saved".

In fact if the problem is that they are lost - then the solution is not "try hard to forgive others in your lost state so that you can then be saved" that would be salvation by works. I think we both agree on that point for the lost. They cannot earn forgiveness from God by first having wonderful characters as a lost person.

True - and it only works if you think that such a thing is possible and that the warning is legit.

But if it can be argued that this is like an Easter Bunny flying down from the moon and stealing your car - well no one takes that kind of warning seriously because all know that it is a scenario that is beyond the realm of possibility.

I think all would agree here as well.

Indeed - but the unforgiving servant does not come to the king and proclaim his perfect character before the King as the basis for getting forgiveness. He comes to the king in desperate condition just as all the lost must do. He is forgiven of an unthinkable debt - just as we all are.

And the King never argues that the unforgiven servant should forgive anyone for he had not yet been forgiven. The King does not expect him to behave well toward others until he himself has experienced 100% full grace himself. We are never asked to be better toward others than we have experienced from God.

I would argue that both Calvinists and Arminians will accept that there is such a thing as one who becomes saved and the "perseveres firm unto the end".

I certainly believe that there are such cases and I am certain everyone on this board would admit to such cases.

However how can one have the "Assurance of salvation" if the answer is that when you accept Christ today with all your heart - it is really fake should it turn out that 20 years from today you failed to persevere?

You could not even know that today you are in fellowship with Christ or born-again at all - until you see that 20 years from day you continue to persevere firm unto the end.

In the Arminian model you can know that "you stand by your faith" Romans 11 today - you just cannot know that 20 years from today you will also "persevere firm unto the end" so then each day you have to take the warning in scripture regarding that very real risk seriously - day by day from now to that 20 year future point.



in Christ,

Bob

 

The parable does not appear to be about the never-forgiven and yet innexplicably unforgiving servant. Neither does the parable describe a servant who is merely offered forgiveness but never accepted it - never had a basis to forgive others, never experienced the joy of release from debt and full forgiveness.

If "never forgiven" then clearly no debt is returned to him - then he is never released from his debt - then he simply owes the full amount the entire time and behaves toward others in a similar fashion having never actually been forgiven.

How different then the ending of that scenario.

[FONT=&quot]Matt 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

===================

We cannot rewrite this as "so shall My Father do to each one of you who have not been fully forgiven - if you do not forgive others"?? Rather Christ argues that those listening are like the servant in that they HAVE been fully forgiven a great debt and so ARE under obligation to "go and do likewise".

I think we both agree that having this as an appeal to the "never fully forgiven" would not work.

If Christ wishes to address the unforgiven - should it not be "come unto Me all who are weary and heavy ladened and I will give you rest"??

Or should it be an appeal to better behavior as an unforgiven lost person?

I believe the appeal to the lost - is to first get saved not to first behave better as a lost person. My guess is that you agree with me on this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Agreed.
...
I believe for example that many many Marriages begin with true love - but decades later "someone makes a bad choice".

In a world of choice - 20 years of marriage can end in divorce. That is not proof that the couple never loved each other in the first place.

To end something good is a tragedy - but it is not proof that the good thing never existed.

If we solve the problem by "defining terms to fit" a given POV then we can test that by seeing if the Bible ever talks about failure to persevere in a saved state - if it does - then the definition is flawed.

If the Bible says that by definition it is impossible to fail to persevere once you are saved - then the definition is affirmed.

If the Bible warns about forgiveness revoked and saints who "stand by their faith being cut off" or "being severed from Christ" or "falling from grace" then it would be an argument against the accuracy of the definition we have selected.

1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.




in Christ,

Bob

 

Christ is the one telling the story and outside of that Parable he applies the lesson to the saved saints around him saying "so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive each one his brother...".

I should think then that this is the divine perspective.

I think both those who accept OSAS and those who do not would admit that there is such a thing as those who are not saved in the church and who joined without ever being saved.

I know I certainly admit to that.

In Matt 18 Christ defines a cut off point for one that is fully forgiven.

In Romans 11 Paul does not define the exact cut off point - only that the saints who "stand by faith" are to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" in Galatians 5:4 Paul appears to be talking about a cut off point "you have been severed from Christ" -- "you have fallen from Grace"

I am hoping that these Bible texts do not mean that at the first flaw, first fault along those lines one is cut off. But the texts do appear to be speaking to a cut off at some point.

My preference is to believe that the 1John 2:1 statement that though we are to sin not - yet if we do sin we have an advocate that operates on the principle "if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" - is operating in the case of "mistakes made".

But we do not do the other texts justice (texts such as those mentioned and also Ezek 18) if we simply ignore the cut off language they are using as if such a thing should not be taken seriously when the Bible authors are going out of their way to make the point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I notice you did not say Matt 18 "shows that if they do not forgive others then they were never fully forgiven by God in the first place". When Christ said "So shall my Father do to each one of you" -- what is the "thing that he would --- do --- ?" Is it "not forgive you in the first place" unlike the parable - or is it "I forgave you all that debt – then revoke your forgiveness"?

Notice that in Matt 6 the continued prayer "format" of the saints - the Lord's prayer - continually reminds them that if they do not forgive others as fully forgiven saints they will not be forgiven. This is not the "sinners prayer" it is not entrance into salvation - it is the daily ongoing prayer of the saints.

Suppose for a moment we change all the examples in the bible to avoid a scenario that challenges OSAS.

The 4 kinds of ground in Matt 13 is reduced to just two. The seed that falls on the wayside and never comes to life, and the good ground where the seed flourishes. No stony ground no ground with thorns because that idea of springing to life only to die back again - just can't be true.

The fully-forgiven yet unforgiving servant becomes the 'never forgiven - so naturally unforgiving servant'.

Romans 11 is changed from "you stand only by your faith - you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" -- becomes "if you do not stand by your faith you will not be cut off because you were never in - in the first place nothing to cut you off from. you will just remain as you are -- but if you are standing by your faith you have nothing to fear - you can never fail, so you will never be cut off".

Gal 5:4 becomes "you began well... no one can hinder you... you can never be severed from Christ or fallen from grace because no matter the doctrinal error you may embrace in the future - still you can never be severed from Christ or fallen from Grace -- just a bit unhappy"

or maybe "you did not begin well and that is why you think you have fallen from Grace. In reality you never had anything to fall from - you were never joined to Christ so you cannot have been severed from Christ. You simply need to be a Christian, be born-again, begin the Christian walk and it is all in the bag".

Ezek 18 is changed entirely.


1 Timothy 4:16 is changed from “Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you”. Now Paul’s advice to Timothy becomes "nothing you do will ensure salvation for you and for those who hear you because that is already a done deal. But you will be happier if you take pains and pay attention to the things I am saying".

John 15:1-8 is changed from "every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit... is removed and cast into the fire" into "Every branch NOT IN ME in the first place will be cast into the fire. But every branch IN ME will never be removed no matter the fruit it bears, nothing will ever change it."

We could find a way to edit each of the examples where the Bible details stand in the way. We could take the warning - declare it to be unrealistic and beyond the realm of possibility - and end up with "peace and safety" just where the Bible states "this is a real warning".

There is a danger there that cannot be avoided if the solution is simply to down play the details that don't fit.

At what age in the past could that model not have covered up almost any mistaken tradition ever held by man? It falls short of the razor sharp sola-scriptura test of a strongly held belief.

in Christ,

Bob

 

To hold to OSAS we must deal with many texts that deal with perseverance - and find a way to make them become "of course you will persevere so do not worry" or else become "whether you persevere or not - all will be well, peace and safety. But just not as many toys in heaven.".

=========================================

[FONT=&quot]Matt 10:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but it is he who has [/FONT][FONT=&quot]endured[/FONT][FONT=&quot] until the end that will be saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 4:16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot] both for yourself and for those who hear you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 Tim 6:11-14 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But you, O man of God, flee these things and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. 12 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Fight the good fight[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of faith, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 15 which He will manifest in His own time, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 2:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. For this reason we must [/FONT][FONT=&quot]pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from it[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 3:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house [/FONT][FONT=&quot]whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the boast of our hope firm until the end.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 3:12-14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For we have become[/FONT][FONT=&quot] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Heb 10:35-39[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]35 Therefore, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not throw away your confidence[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which has a great reward.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]36 For you have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]need of endurance[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that when you have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]done the will of God, you may receive [/FONT][FONT=&quot]what was promised.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 But [/FONT][FONT=&quot]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction[/FONT][FONT=&quot], but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Cor 15:1-2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in which also you stand,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Rom 11:22[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you stand by your faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Do not be conceited, but [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fear[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God’s kindness,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]if you continue in His kindness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; otherwise you also will be cut off.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Col 1:21-23 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and beyond reproach[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]IF INDEED you CONTINUE[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the faith [/FONT][FONT=&quot]FIRMLY established[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and STEADFAST and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]reap et life IF we[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ..[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

Could not get these in that last post -- too big.

================================


[FONT=&quot]Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ""But the one who [/FONT][FONT=&quot]endures to the end, he will be saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has[/FONT][FONT=&quot] endured to the end who will be saved[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Peter 1:10-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if these qualities are yours and are increasing[/FONT][FONT=&quot], they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in this way the entrance[/FONT][FONT=&quot] into the eternal kingdom[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1Cor 9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave lest after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Phil 3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]that I may know Him[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]power of His resurrection[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the fellowship of His sufferings[/FONT][FONT=&quot], being conformed to His death;
11 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I press on so that I may lay hold of[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that for which also I was laid hold of[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [/FONT][FONT=&quot]press on toward the goal for the prize [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of the upward call[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of God in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]

 

More than a few people who have been married for a few decades will admit that there were long periods of time where their love for each other, their marriage was seemingly perfect. Few of them will attribute the end to the entire marriage as if they had started - at the end and simply camped out there for 25 years.

(Though some may have that view of it - not all do).

You cannot argue that the loss of something precious is the "proof" that you never had it, never lost anything at all. It is a circular argument that folds in on itself.

Lucifer "lost heaven".

Adam and Eve "lost paradise".

The Jewish Nation - lost the Messiah as their King who could indeed have freed them not only from Romans but also from sin.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Those who lose their wallet never had a wallet and the proof that they never had a wallet is that after having a wallet they lost their wallet.

Surely you see the self-conflicted nature of that claim.

Case 1:
The warning to the lost is that they must "NOT Persevere" in their present lost condition - but must immediately give up! Surrender! Stop what they are doing..

Case 2:
The warning to the saved is that they "MUST Persevere" they must NOT give up, they must not surrender, they must NOT stop doing what they are doing.

You are trying to take the Bible texts that are worded as the warning to saints - and turn it into the warning to the lost. But as you can see that does not work.

They can NOT lose what they do not have.

They can NOT be saved by persevering in their lost state.

The message to the lost is never "be sure to persevere because if you do not then you are lost".

======================================

Now here is my question for those who hold to OSAS in view of the texts given -- "what if" you are wrong? What is the consequence of taking the warnings to the saved to persevere and claiming either that the warning is about something that is not possible or that the warning is not even meant for saved saints - it is only talking to the still-lost?

What is the implication of such a course "if" the warnings are legit as they read? Literally accurate?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Then by your selected definition - there is no such thing as failure to persevere or the thorny ground or the rocky ground of Matt 13 or the fully forgiven servant that then has all of his former forgiveness returned in Matt 18 or the one that stands by their faith in Romans 11 instructed to "fear for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" etc.

ALL of the warnings to the saints are "made void" because "by definition" saints "only persevere firm to the end" and it is a matter of "definition" alone.

You are selecting a definition that makes certain warnings in scripture void.

The only warning you have left is the warning to the "way side" ground where the person is never saved to start with. IT is the "I never knew you" warning to the lost - and never saved.

But that sets aside a lot of scripture that can't exist "by definition".

In your solution to this you say that those scriptures which should not exist - are there to represent "how humans view it" and not the eternal view point of God.

Certainly you and I are humans and not God so it is possible that writing something specifically for humans is the problem as you say - but even so you would have to admit that it is God that has chosen that language for us humans. If we dismiss it saying "well that is just for humans it is not right - by definition" then possibly we are negating the very protection, the very benefit that humans are supposed to get out of the text in the first place. If we dismiss it in that way and so teach others - then we risk stepping in between them and God - by negating the very text God is sending to protect them/us.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Even by Calvinist standards those "given to Christ" by the Father in John 6 is a highly qualified short-list of the "FEW" in Matt 7 that are drawn, and that see, and hear, and come to Christ, and believe and are raised up on the last day.

If we "choose" to limit the term "saved" to only those that persevere firm unto the end, and that is how we "define saved" so that it fits our tradition - then we can delete/ignore/downsize a lot of scripture that tells the saints that they must persevere firm unto the end because we can simply say "well - by definition that is what they do - no need to warn them about any sort of danger".

And yet the Word of God - chose a different solution by explicitly applying those warnings to "you who stand by your faith" Romans 11... and to those of whom God could say "I freely forgave you ALL that debt" Matt 18 and in Galatians "you began WELL".

How much Bible can you honestly set aside and still feel good about the solution that you claim is the one that fits the Bible the best?

in Christ,

Bob