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Aren't BOTh heavena nd Hell described in eternal terms?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
You stick to a wrong erroneous interpretation of this one verse. What if you are wrong?
What if you are wrong also on your view of soteriology?
What then?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Luke 12:45-50, James 4:17, 2Cor 5:10 would be the answer for the sins charged to the various individuals in hell and the fact that some suffer more than others instead of all getting "infinite torture". Which means Hitler and a 14 year old do not get the same torment rather than both getting infinite torment.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
yet for all it will be true that God will "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.
In my view - Matt 10:28 is 100% correct.
The variable degrees of torment as in Luke 12:45-48 is correct rather than Hitler and 14 year-olds both getting the same "infinite torment"
Ezek 28 stating that At some point - Satan will finally be "no more" is correct.
And Rev 20 stating that fire from God consumes/devours the wicked -- is correct.
And as Christ said in John 11 the first death is nothing compared to the second-death and so it is not even counted.
And the people today who are lost because they reject a Christianity thinking that the bible preaches a God of "infinite torture for 14 year olds and Hitler" -- have some "good news" coming.
If I am right in accepting this Bible doctrine - then to Christ is measured out the exact - finite amount of torment and torture due to each sinner for each sin in all of time - and He "pays it all in full" at the cross.
If I am right in accepting this Bible doctrine - then the Matt 18 statement that the wicked will pay their entire debt of sin - is correct. Only then after full and complete payment will their soul and body finally be "destroyed" never to exist again as in the statement in Matt 10:28.
==============================
If I am wrong - and then Hitler and 14-year-olds DO get the same torment - INFINITE torment.
And Christ and the Angels are all stuck at the brink-of-hell for all eternity
See Rev 14:10-11 stating that all the torment of the wicked takes place "in the presence of the Lamb and of His angels" is correct.
And the saints of Rev 14:1-5 are with Christ wherever He goes - so they too are stuck at the brink of hell for all of eternity.
Thus - infinite torment not only for the wicked - but also for the saints who must stay there and watch it take place "in the presence of the Lamb AND of his angels".
So yeah when we get to heaven and then the 1000 years, and then the lake of fire -- lots-o-frustrated-saints will be standing at the brink of hell for all eternity --That will be disappointing ... if I am wrong.
if I am wrong - the wicked are never consumed, never devoured, never "destroyed both body and sou", and not only is Satan eternally alive but even of the wicked - it can never be said "they will be no more" Ezek 28 much less of Satan. Nor can it be said as in Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins it shall die" for in fact "the soul that sins it shall live and suffer and curse God forever in the lake of fire" - infinite sinning, infinite torment.
==========================================
But if I am right - then a lot of people are being chased off and away from Christianity simply for the sake of dark-ages superstition.
And that would be sad indeed.
in Christ,
Bob
yet for all it will be true that God will "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.
In my view - Matt 10:28 is 100% correct.
The variable degrees of torment as in Luke 12:45-48 is correct rather than Hitler and 14 year-olds both getting the same "infinite torment"
Ezek 28 stating that At some point - Satan will finally be "no more" is correct.
And Rev 20 stating that fire from God consumes/devours the wicked -- is correct.
And as Christ said in John 11 the first death is nothing compared to the second-death and so it is not even counted.
And the people today who are lost because they reject a Christianity thinking that the bible preaches a God of "infinite torture for 14 year olds and Hitler" -- have some "good news" coming.
If I am right in accepting this Bible doctrine - then to Christ is measured out the exact - finite amount of torment and torture due to each sinner for each sin in all of time - and He "pays it all in full" at the cross.
If I am right in accepting this Bible doctrine - then the Matt 18 statement that the wicked will pay their entire debt of sin - is correct. Only then after full and complete payment will their soul and body finally be "destroyed" never to exist again as in the statement in Matt 10:28.
==============================
If I am wrong - and then Hitler and 14-year-olds DO get the same torment - INFINITE torment.
And Christ and the Angels are all stuck at the brink-of-hell for all eternity
See Rev 14:10-11 stating that all the torment of the wicked takes place "in the presence of the Lamb and of His angels" is correct.
And the saints of Rev 14:1-5 are with Christ wherever He goes - so they too are stuck at the brink of hell for all of eternity.
Thus - infinite torment not only for the wicked - but also for the saints who must stay there and watch it take place "in the presence of the Lamb AND of his angels".
So yeah when we get to heaven and then the 1000 years, and then the lake of fire -- lots-o-frustrated-saints will be standing at the brink of hell for all eternity --That will be disappointing ... if I am wrong.
if I am wrong - the wicked are never consumed, never devoured, never "destroyed both body and sou", and not only is Satan eternally alive but even of the wicked - it can never be said "they will be no more" Ezek 28 much less of Satan. Nor can it be said as in Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins it shall die" for in fact "the soul that sins it shall live and suffer and curse God forever in the lake of fire" - infinite sinning, infinite torment.
==========================================
But if I am right - then a lot of people are being chased off and away from Christianity simply for the sake of dark-ages superstition.
And that would be sad indeed.
in Christ,
Bob
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No, it indeed, according to the Bible, is 100% wrong.Originally Posted by BobRyan
yet for all it will be true that God will "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.
In my view - Matt 10:28 is 100% correct.
By your own logic, the doctrine of "annihilation of the wicked" is "the same infinite torment." You have solved nothing but simply contradicted the Scripture.
That is not what it says. Be truthful for once!
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--Tormented day and night forever and ever is not being consumed or devoured is it?
What is the good news? Annihilation? The Bible does not teach that!
True it is paid in full at the cross. But you don't really believe that do you?
The SDA line is that he is still making an atonement right now. It is not yet complete is it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/seventhdayadventist_1.shtml#h3
You can't even be sure if you are a genuine believer according to this.
How many good deeds do you need to perform before you are assured that Christ will accept you?
Your definition of destroyed is wrong. It is your definition and not a biblical definition. There are many things that are destroyed without being annihilated.
If you are right they get the same torment--annihilation. Is that justice? Is that what those verses teaches? Especially the Scripture:
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
That is very imaginative. Where do you get that from? The Lost Books of the Bible?
It is a picture of God pouring out his wrath on this world, which includes the antichrist (the beast). What is your point? You can't understand the passage?
What on earth are you talking about?
Why not include verse six to give you some context:
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
--Obviously it is a heavenly scene. No one is standing on the brink of eternity.
You are utterly confused. Rev.6-19 describes a seven year period where God pours out his wrath on the world that is in full rebellion against him.
One doesn't get to heaven by their view of eschatology. That, in the broader view of the Word of God is relatively unimportant.
One gets to heaven according to their faith in Christ.
But you contend that one gets to heaven by keeping the commands of Christ. If that be true you won't make it there.
What if you are wrong?
They will face eternal torment as God has promised and as difficult as a pill that that is to swallow. The Lord also made it clear in Matthew 11 that there will be varying degrees of eternal punishment. We don't know the mechanics of how God does that, we only know that he accomplishes what He promises. How can a finite mind understand an infinite God? He cannot. But we accept what he says as true, and we accept it by faith.
No, if you are right, there are many Christians that have a view different than yours but have complete assurance that they are going to heaven. They don't have to doubt their salvation like you do. They don't have to wonder if they have done enough works. They do them because the Holy Spirit that dwells within compels them out of a changed life, not because they have to. There is a big difference.
Salvation is by grace through faith and faith alone. It is not of works--any kind of works; not of the law; not of keeping the law. That is a heresy.
1. This is speaking of believers not lost persons.
2. God will not cast believers into gehenna which is the Greek term translated "hell" here.
3. This text clearly establishes that physical death does not kill the soul and thus the soul continues to exist and that only being cast into Gehenna can "destroy" it. However, God does not cast believer's souls into Gehenna and thus this proves the continued existence of the soul even for the lost at least between physical death and the Great White Judgement throne.
4. The term translated "destroy" NEVER means anhiliates and is NEVER used to describe an unconsious condition - NEVER. It is used four times in this very chapter - "the LOST (anihilated?) sheep of Israel - v. 6 - vv. 39-40 "LOSE (anhilated?) their life shall find it" The root etymology is "loose-away from" and that is the meaning of death - separation.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
1. Which is fine - since OSAS is merely man-made tradition.
2. You cannot re-edit Matt 18 because it does not fit man-made traditions about OSAS - that would be eisegesis.
in Christ,
Bob
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
1. Which is fine - since OSAS is merely man-made tradition.
2. You cannot re-edit Matt 18 because it does not fit man-made traditions about OSAS - that would be eisegesis.
in Christ,
Bob
Did you know that green little men from Mars live on the moon now.
They do.
Did you know that no matter how often you state a falsehood as truth it still remains a falsehood. Just because your opinion is stated as truth it doesn't make it truth; it is still your unsubstantiated opinion, and a false opinion at that. You are wrong.
There is nothing about being reduced to ashes in this verse; not one word.
Did it ever occur to you that "spirits" cannot be burned. Quite often in Scripture the word "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable as is the case here.
So what is the lesson to be learned here?
Mat.28:18 says: Christ has all power (authority) in heaven and in earth.
Yes, we are to have a Godly fear of the Lord. He has all authority. He doesn't say here that he will cast anyone into hell. He is speaking to the believer. We are to respect his authority.
If I light a match and let it burn what becomes of it? It turns into ashes.
If an arsonist torches a house, what becomes of it? It turns into ashes.
What became of Sodom? It turned into ashes. Do you have a problem with the physics of this?
The city was burned. The bodies were burned. But one cannot burn a spirit. It lives on forever. In fact if you read Matthew 11, the inhabitants of Sodom will rise up in judgment against those of Capernaum. They were not "destroyed" per your definition. You are wrong.
If they are suffering eternal fire, it is obvious they are alive today. Their "destruction" is simply separation from God for all eternity. One cannot "destroy" a spirit physically. It is an impossibility.
There have been many houses and even cities that have been reduced to ashes. It happens quite often. Have you read the news lately about what is happening in Syria, Kiev, Egypt, and in many other places in this world? Cities are being burned--reduced to ashes. The city may never rise again. That is possible. But the people will live forever--whether in Hell or in heaven. A spirit doesn't burn.
You are a fine one to call Biblical doctrine "man-made tradition," when you are the one following after "woman-made tradition" never previously heard before until EGW came along.
convicted1
Guest
Let's cut to the chase here. Who on here believes in:
1) annihilation : body burns up and is no more
2) eternal punishment: body remains w/o ever burning up
I hold to #2...
1) annihilation : body burns up and is no more
2) eternal punishment: body remains w/o ever burning up
I hold to #2...
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agreed - cut to the chase.
Who here accepts the Bible as it reads - or fears the Bible and chooses man-made tradition rather than the Bible?
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
(All torment of the wicked in the lake of ire takes place IN The PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His angels).
Rev 14:10
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
The wicked are not only "destroyed" both body and soul Matt 10:28 but also "Devoured" by the fire the comes down out of heaven from God.
Rev 20
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Satan - reduced to Ashes "you will be no more"
Ez 28
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the saints
Mal 4
4 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.
The saints will have "everlasting life" - the wicked "will perish"
John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 6
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Who here accepts the Bible as it reads - or fears the Bible and chooses man-made tradition rather than the Bible?
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
(All torment of the wicked in the lake of ire takes place IN The PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His angels).
Rev 14:10
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
The wicked are not only "destroyed" both body and soul Matt 10:28 but also "Devoured" by the fire the comes down out of heaven from God.
Rev 20
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Satan - reduced to Ashes "you will be no more"
Ez 28
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”
The wicked will be ashes under the feet of the saints
Mal 4
4 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.
The saints will have "everlasting life" - the wicked "will perish"
John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 6
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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The Greek term "apolummi" NEVER means anihilation or turned to ashes. Try that fit in Matthew 10:6!! Second, the Soul is what cannot be killed in Matthew 10:28 and thus is immaterial and immaterial "spirit" cannot be turned to ashes. Third, between the death of the body and Gehenna the soul continues to exist according to Matthew 10:28. Killing the body does not kill the soul and thus the soul continues to exist. Casting into to Gehenna does not occur until after the white seat Judgment throne which is yet future after the coming of Christ and thus the soul still continues to exist.
Your reasoning is simply ridiculous. You have no scriptures. You simply build your doctrine on INFERENCES that are not justified by reason or scripture.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy ("apolummi") both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed ("apolummi") them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
One more time -- "with feeling'.
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed ("apolummi") them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy ("apolummi") both soul and body in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell).
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed ("apolummi") them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
One more time -- "with feeling'.
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed ("apolummi") them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Red herring - I never said that Apolummi has only one translation only that in this context - the bible translators are correct "destroy" and as has been pointed out with everlasting fire in Jude 7 - that is "destroy" by "reducing them to ashes".
These Bible details do not end simply because one does not like them.
But that is by contrast to what happens in fiery hell where in fact both body and soul are destroyed.
You argue for the soul and body in even more solid/active existence in the 2nd death than in the first. But Christ in Matt 10:28 argues for "destroy".
Vitriol on your part - does not solve the problem for your model.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The ancient debate: Do sinners die in the 2nd death? Or do they become as God "who ALONE possess immortality"? 1Tim 6:15-16
[FONT="]Gen 3:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 [/FONT][FONT="]Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18 [/FONT]
[FONT="] 4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is MineThe soul who sins will die.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 [/FONT][FONT="]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 [/FONT][FONT="]“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
[/FONT][FONT="]Matt 10[/FONT][FONT="]
28 ""Do not fear those [/FONT][FONT="]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT="] but are unable to [/FONT][FONT="]kill the soul[/FONT][FONT="]; but rather fear Him who is able to [/FONT][FONT="]destroy both[/FONT][FONT="] soul and body [/FONT][FONT="]in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell)[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT][FONT="]
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Gen 3:[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 [/FONT][FONT="]Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18 [/FONT]
[FONT="] 4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is MineThe soul who sins will die.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 [/FONT][FONT="]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 [/FONT][FONT="]“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. [/FONT]
[FONT="]
in this case the term "destroy" means to "reduce them to Ashes".
[/FONT][FONT="]Matt 10[/FONT][FONT="]
28 ""Do not fear those [/FONT][FONT="]who kill the body[/FONT][FONT="] but are unable to [/FONT][FONT="]kill the soul[/FONT][FONT="]; but rather fear Him who is able to [/FONT][FONT="]destroy both[/FONT][FONT="] soul and body [/FONT][FONT="]in hell (Gehenna: Fiery Hell)[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT][FONT="]
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )
Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.[/FONT]
This is the umpteenth time you have copy and pasted the same verses, all of which have been refuted at some point or another--most of which have been refuted in the last half dozen posts. But you keep posting them anyway without giving any rebuttal. Why do you do this? You are unteachable. No one is listening to you. We don't listen to broken record players. When you have something of substance to post then do so, but please stop the needless redundancy. No one likes the monotonous ear-jarring, droning on and on of the same thing time after time after time.
Jesus Christ entered hell, went through hell and went out of hell IN JUST ONE DAY BECAUSE HE WAS GOD.
No I cannot imagine man getting out of hell EVER BECAUSE, MAN IS ONLY MAN and not God.
I also cannot see one sin can earn man more or better than what it cost Christ.
Then when you have seen some sins you will also understand hell, that it can never be long enough.
Then, when you have seen that that applies to yourself, you will also understand forgiveness, that it can never be shorter than hell is long.
Since it has been quite some time that I have last recited this verse, because of the striking force of its alliteration I’ll say it in Greek, ‘nomos de pareiséhlthen hína pleonásehi to paráptohma: hou de epleónasen heh hamartía HUPEREPERÍSSEUSEN heh cháris.’ “But law entered so that might abound the offence, but where abounded sin more abounded grace.” Romans 5:20.
No I cannot imagine man getting out of hell EVER BECAUSE, MAN IS ONLY MAN and not God.
I also cannot see one sin can earn man more or better than what it cost Christ.
Then when you have seen some sins you will also understand hell, that it can never be long enough.
Then, when you have seen that that applies to yourself, you will also understand forgiveness, that it can never be shorter than hell is long.
Since it has been quite some time that I have last recited this verse, because of the striking force of its alliteration I’ll say it in Greek, ‘nomos de pareiséhlthen hína pleonásehi to paráptohma: hou de epleónasen heh hamartía HUPEREPERÍSSEUSEN heh cháris.’ “But law entered so that might abound the offence, but where abounded sin more abounded grace.” Romans 5:20.
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the lost/unsaved aree eternally seperated from presense of God, as eternal life in bible means having a spiritual relationship back with God again!
And BOB has to refuse to use a Greek lexicon to jet his understandings on thsi, he just takes the "revelations" of His false prophetess!
Hokaai a bit!
Reformed churches -- at least in South Africa -- are accepting 'revelations' about the immortality or rather mortalness of the soul and limited scope of hell.
No one needs a prophet to follow in this regard although it seems every church has a prophet or more of its own who is or are the final arbiter in the issue.
The SDA church -- I have always maintained -- is not so peculiar among its free-will believing fellow Christian churches.
The hand can easily be stuck into own bosom and pulled out just so leprous.
Just so often nowadays <<Greek lexicons>> no longer are the conscientious witnesses of a bygone era, but are become the prophets of cultist bias.
For example, compare Greens or Strongs electronic versions with their first editions in certain specific Scriptures like Matthew 28:1 and Mark 15:42. But that is another subject. It nevertheless shows, the whole range of 'Christian' Churches are equally prejudiced which is just another word for cultist.
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So your answer is to pit Jesus against the prophets as Jesus says men cannot kill the soul so you quote Prophets that say man can kill the soul???
Jesus says that only in GEHENNA not sheol is the soul destroyed but you claim the prophets contradict Jesus that the soul is destroyed at physical death in sheol.
Whenever a theologion is forced to pit scripture against scripture to respond then that is an automatic confession of ignorance as the truth will not make scripture contradict scripture.
In Ezekeil 18 the preceding context states clearly that God is speaking about the judicial system "IN ISRAEL" not God's final judgment after the second coming of Christ:
Ezek. 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
It was a proverb used in Israel in regard to their judicial system. The Jews were requiring the children of the guilty party to pay the judicial penalty and this was the proverb used to justify it.
The continuing context makes it clear that God is correcting the judical procedures being used in the land of Israel rather than speaking of the final judgment in heaven:
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
All of these descrptive actions are occurring on earth in the land of Israel and correcting the judical system in Israel for missapplying civil law in regard to the children of those who violate the law in Israel.
The following context makes it clear that God is correcting the unjust court system in the land of Israel so that it conforms with God's standard as he explicilty an clearly states this in verse 25 and then again in verse 29-30:
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 ¶ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
God is warning "the house of Israel" to turn from their abuse of the civil law and its administration to those who have not committed the sin or else God's judgement will come upon "the house of Israel" for civil law abuse among his people.
Now, you have in the past completely ignored these clear and explicit contextual evidences that it is the judicial system in Israel that is being abused and being corrected by God. However, let the readers who have no dogma to defend clearly see the evidence as Bob refuses to acknowledges what everyone can easily see is the intended application because of his SDA false dogma.
This is simply a lie and any Greek Lexicon will show that the etymological meaning of this term is composed of two words "apo" meaning "away from" and "luo" meaning "to loose" and thus literally means to "separate from."
Anyone with two grains of common sense can easily see that in the very context of Matthew 10 it is first used of the "lost house of Israel" who are SEPARATED FROM God because of their sins, whereas, your meaning would have Christ going to the "ashes" of the house of Israel which is absurd!
Furthermore, your definition comes by way of INFERENCE a FORCED inference that does not harmonize with the use of "apolummi" anywhere in Scriptures. For example, the same word describes the condition of wine skins that split or a tare that "separated" the skin so that it cannot be used. It is the same term that is used again for the "soul" in Matthew 10:40-41 where Christ says that one must "apolummi" his soul in order to save it. You would have us believe that it means "ashes" and so in order to save the soul it must become "ashes. However, he is referring to SEPARATING the soul from worldliness in order to make it count or be saved for the glory of God.
In Matthew 28:10 where he explicitly says that physical death does not kill the soul but only God can "apolummi" the soul in Gehenna you would have us believe God turns it to ashes in Gehenna but the term simply means "separated" and Gehenna is where evil angels and men are separated from God and the new creation forever where they continue to consciously suffer as Matthew 25:46 uses a Greek term that is ONLY USED in Scripture for conscious suffering.
However, the truth, the context is nothing to you simply because of your SDA dogma that you will defend at the cost of context, truth or anything else that gets in your way as your conscience is seared (1 Tim. 4:2-3).
So readers, Bob will ignore all evidences against him and just act like a parrot and simply repeat his dogma. Sad, but true.
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....if it were but that one dimensional and simple ...
I have learned to accept the hell as the punishment of the wicked as a mystery which God mercifully keeps the saved from ever learning fully which must needs be practically.
On the other hand I believe that I have learned some 'deeper insights' about hell from Christ's own and DIVINE AND ALIVE EXPERIENCE OF IT IN THAT NIGHT AND DAY OF HELL IN THE GARDENS OF GETHSEMANE AND GOLGOTHA ---where hell was "IN THE KINGDOM OF HIS FATHER".
I never thought one might think about hell as in the Kingdom of our Father where CHRIST'S DARKEST HOUR was the BRIGHTEST IN GOD'S GLORY, and where the RIVER OF LIFE gushed forth from the Throne of God in Paradise.
Where all the Promises of God came TRUE in Jesus' Promise to the thief next to Him on the cross: "Verily I say unto Thee [as must have the Father to the Son], Today shalt THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."
O, I cannot care less what people might say or think.
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