"The New Calvinism" on PBS

[kyredneck]

Your attitude that is portrayed in this post displays the shallowness of the evangelism among many Calvinists and why there is no zeal, no responsibility to the Great Commission.
Christ died for the world, not simply lambs, which is an inference that they are already saved, and therefore no need to evangelize the lost.
There is no urgency in your post. Sinners are dying and on their way to Hell for all eternity? What are we going to do about it?

What did God want? Even in the OT, the Lord put it so succinctly:
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.[/FONT]

Is there no one to stand in the gap? Are there still nations without a gospel witness, even some without a Bible in their own language, and we simply sit in our theological armchair and just assume they are not of the elect and therefore not our responsibility. That is so pitiful! It is disregarding the Lord's command everywhere to evangelize all the world. He never, never said to "go and find the elect." That is nonsense.
Nor does the Bible teach that the elect will come to you, or get saved on their own.

Ok, got it, Calvinism is sending people to hell....or fewer are going to heaven on account of Calvinism....or something like that.

 

[kyredneck]

Some where in that 'great commission' of your's to populate heaven DHK THE REAL GREAT COMMISSION, feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep gets lost. I grew up in a radical extremist 'evangelical' SB Church giving 45 minute invitations singing Just As I Am over and over and over again WHEN ONLY IT'S MEMBERS WERE PRESENT! How many disgusting 'sermons' I've been tortured under placing the burden of other's eternal destiny on my shoulders, bound for hell because I wasn't giving enough or witnessing enough or letting my light shine enough etc., etc., etc..

I escaped that place just as soon as I was old enough to do so when finally outside of my parents control and wandered for several years 'lost' in the ways of the world. But the Lord was still looking after me and brought me to assemblies that actually do that REAL GREAT COMMISSION. THEY FED ME! I had no idea how malnourished I had been until I finally got some real food.

Go put that horrendous burden of other's eternal destiny on someone else DHK. I thank my Saviour for giving me the truth:

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ok, got it, Calvinism is sending people to hell....or fewer are going to heaven on account of Calvinism....or something like that.

Because human nature is just so gratuitous!:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some where in that 'great commission' of your's to populate heaven the REAL Great Commision, feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep gets lost. I grew up in a radical extremist 'evangelical' SB Church giving 45 minute invitations singing Just As I Am over and over and over again WHEN ONLY IT'S MEMBERS WERE PRESENT! How many disgusting 'sermons' I've been tortured under placing the burden of other's eternal destiny on my shoulders, bound for hell because I wasn't giving enough or witnessing enough or letting my light shine enough etc., etc., etc..

I escaped that place just as soon as I was old enough to do so when finally outside of my parents control and wandered for several years 'lost' in the ways of the world. But the Lord was still looking after me and brought me to assemblies that actually do that REAL GREAT COMMISSION. THEY FED ME! I had no idea how malnourished I had been until I finally got some real food.

Go put that burden of other's eternal destiny on someone else DHK. I thank my Saviour for giving me the truth:

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

Sounds familiar....only I have to lean on you & some others of the OLD SCHOOL for my nourishment. Reading & study alone doesn't do it.

 

[steaver]

let me help you S



you acknowledge those holding to "tulip" suggest it is indeed the scriptural teaching...here



now you ask your BIG question:laugh:

If it is truth.....and you actively resist it...where does that leave you steaver?

And this response somehow refutes my point?? You already stepped in and proved my point that some Cals condemn those who do not believe in TULIP. (Let you in on a little secret brother....we can all read what you write in response to specific questions....we can see when you attempt to do a rewrite and then clean it up. :smilewinkgrin: )

 

[Iconoclast]

And this response somehow refutes my point?? You already stepped in and proved my point that some Cals condemn those who do not believe in TULIP. (Let you in on a little secret brother....we can all read what you write in response to specific questions....we can see when you attempt to do a rewrite and then clean it up. :smilewinkgrin: )

no need to rewrite anything...I meant what I posted the first time:wavey:

 

[steaver]

no need to rewrite anything...I meant what I posted the first time:wavey:

Of course you did, and then you tried to say you do not condemn anyone to hell, because you do not have that authority of course. We all know of course only God has that authority, the point is you BELIEVE and assert that those who do not embrace TULIP are indeed lost-condemned to hell. Has nothing to do with anyone believing you having any authority to send them there yourself...but of course you know this. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver;

the point is you BELIEVE and assert that those who do not embrace TULIP are indeed lost-condemned to hell.

Where did I say this? Thanks for this insight into your mind:thumbsup:

I do not think you read my posts with comprehension:wavey:

Those who oppose the grace of God have no hope. Do you think they do?

here is what posted in post 34;

I know many non cals who are cals now by God's grace. This does NOT MEAN that every professed non cal is a believer, as it does not mean every professed cal is a believer either.

Quote:
(Take notice of your fellow Calvinist Icon's bolding of verse 26 in response to my quoted question)

do not worry about Icon....steaver.....you should pay more attention to vs 26 and 27.

This is not the first time you have offered this kind of carnal reasoning scoffing at the truth as if both ideas are equally valid.....they are not.

 

[DHK]

Some where in that 'great commission' of your's to populate heaven DHK THE REAL GREAT COMMISSION, feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep gets lost. I grew up in a radical extremist 'evangelical' SB Church giving 45 minute invitations singing Just As I Am over and over and over again WHEN ONLY IT'S MEMBERS WERE PRESENT! How many disgusting 'sermons' I've been tortured under placing the burden of other's eternal destiny on my shoulders, bound for hell because I wasn't giving enough or witnessing enough or letting my light shine enough etc., etc., etc..

First, it is not "my" great commission. It was given of the Lord.
Here it is for you:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
AND
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
--This is the command; it cannot be avoided.

Your definition "the Real Great Commission" says no such thing as "feed my lambs." In Mark we are told to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Not lambs, but every creature or person. It is clear enough.

The Great Commission has nothing to do with church invitations. I don't speak about your bad experiences when you grew up. That is not the point of this debate. It is non sequitor; a red herring.

I escaped that place just as soon as I was old enough to do so when finally outside of my parents control and wandered for several years 'lost' in the ways of the world. But the Lord was still looking after me and brought me to assemblies that actually do that REAL GREAT COMMISSION. THEY FED ME! I had no idea how malnourished I had been until I finally got some real food.

Your analogy is like the person who stood in front of me the other day.
She escaped Hinduism being under the thumb of her parents all of her life.
Now she has found peace and satisfaction being a J.W.
IOW just because you changed churches doesn't mean you grasped the truth. Your testimony is more about escaping from your parents household just like that former Hindu did. The church fed you. I am sure they did. You were looking for something different and found it. Different is not always right.

Go put that horrendous burden of other's eternal destiny on someone else DHK. I thank my Saviour for giving me the truth:

It was the savior who commanded us to go into all the world. It was the savior who commanded us to preach the gospel to every creature. The onus is on you to obey him. What will you do with his words? They are not my words.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Mt 11

Yes, You first come. That is salvation. But then what? What comes after salvation. There is a matter of progressive sanctification. God demands of each one obedience to the commands of His Word. We dare not ignore them.

 

[robt.k.fall]

DHK, I think (and I could easily be wrong) kyredneck is conflating John 21:15-17 with Matthew 28:18-20 (and I'll add Acts 1:8 as a follow on). While the first is tightly focused in its language, the next two are not.

 

[convicted1]

DHK, I think (and I could easily be wrong) kyredneck is conflating John 21:15-17 with Matthew 28:18-20 (and I'll add Acts 1:8 as a follow on). While the first is tightly focused in its language, the next two are not.

I disagree with you there Squire.

 

[robt.k.fall]

I'm not the Squire. But I'll ask how do these passages not have different focuses. In John, Our Lord is speaking to an individual (Peter) and is speaking of His sheep (those already saved). In Matthew, Our Lord is speaking to the Apostles and Disciples and is speaking of the world. Acts has much the same audience and is speaking of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth.
Matthew is the passage commonly considered to be the Great Commission.

I disagree with you there Squire.

 

[convicted1]

I'm not the Squire. But I'll ask how do these passages not have different focuses. In John, Our Lord is speaking to an individual (Peter) and is speaking of His sheep (those already saved). In Matthew, Our Lord is speaking to the Apostles and Disciples and is speaking of the world. Acts has much the same audience and is speaking of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth.
Matthew is the passage commonly considered to be the Great Commission.

"And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age."(Matthew 28:16-20 YLT)



"When, therefore, they dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, `Simon, [son] of Jonas, dost thou love me more than these?' he saith to him, `Yes, Lord; thou hast known that I dearly love thee;' he saith to him, `Feed my lambs.' He saith to him again, a second time, `Simon, [son] of Jonas, dost thou love me?' he saith to him, `Yes, Lord; thou hast known that I dearly love thee;' he saith to him, `Tend my sheep.' He saith to him the third time, `Simon, [son] of Jonas, dost thou dearly love me?' Peter was grieved that he said to him the third time, `Dost thou dearly love me?' and he said to him, `Lord, thou hast known all things; thou dost know that I dearly love thee.' Jesus saith to him, `Feed my sheep;"(John 21:15-17 YLT)


In both instances, they are there with Jesus post-resurrection. John goes so far as to say this meeting was the third time Christ had revealed Himself to them(vs 14). It appears to me that the four gospels, though all of one accord, some go into more detail concerning certain incidences than others. One quotes Jesus telling Peter he would deny Him three times before the cock crows, whereas Mark says in 14:30 "before the cock crows twice". I have no idea why he's the only one who says "twice" and the others don't. However, that doesn't take away from the overall meaning of Peter's betrail.

So I tend to believe that the closing chapter of each of the four gospels is their last encounter with Christ before His final ascension, it just appears some are in more detail than others...

 

[convicted1]

To prove my point Brother Robert...


"Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?' they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am [he];' -- and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; -- when, therefore, he said to them -- `I am [he],' they went away backward, and fell to the ground. Again, therefore, he questioned them, `Whom do ye seek?' and they said, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus answered, `I said to you that I am [he]; if, then, me ye seek, suffer these to go away;' that the word might be fulfilled that he said -- `Those whom Thou hast given to me, I did not lose of them even one."(John 18:4-9 YLT)


None of the other three accounts have this occurance. That's why I contend that Brother KYR has to correct interpretation...

 

[DHK]

An example of New Calvinism's beliefs:

New Calvinists tend to be ambivalent about the emerging church movement. Mark Driscoll was involved with the emerging church, and claims to be on the Reformed end of the emerging spectrum. His book Confessions of a Reformission Rev (2006) is described as ‘hard lessons from an Emerging Missional Church’. Many are sympathetic to the emerging church movement and contemplative prayer is encouraged by some, such as Keller’s Redeemers Presbyterian Church in New York, which promotes the Monk’s prayer.

http://www.newcalvinist.com/

This is only touching the surface.
Have you ever heard of "the cussing pastor"? Do you know which one he is?

 

[kyredneck]

In John, Our Lord is speaking to an individual (Peter) and is speaking of His sheep (those already saved).....

Those redeemed, purchased with the precious blood of the Lamb:

Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A BB telling of the Christmas Carol....hosting SaturnNeptune as the ghost of Christmas past:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tim Keller.....the ghost of Christmas present.

 

[DHK]

Those redeemed, purchased with the precious blood of the Lamb:

Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

But that is not the Great Commission. The Great Commission is so named because they are the "great" words that he spoke, the "last words" that he spoke just before he ascended up into heaven.
Now what was the chronology of events:

This information can be gleaned from a Chronological Bible, or a number of other ways.
1. John 20:19-25--He appeared to the disciples behind locked doors w/o Thomas.
2. John 20:26-29--After 8 days He appeared to the disciples with Thomas present.
3. John 21:1-15--Peter and the disciples go fishing; they catch nothing. Jesus appears and tells them to cast the net on the other side. Their nets are full. This is the 3rd time that Jesus showed himself to the disciples. vs.14
4. John 21:15-24--They then dine and Jesus asks Peter "Lovest thou me?" He asks the question three times. It is answered three times. And the command to feed my lambs/sheep is given three times.
4. Acts 28:16-20--Then the 11 disciples go into Galilee into a mountain, and Jesus comes and gives them the Great Commission.
Go ye therefore and teach all nations....
5. The same is repeated in Mark 16:15-18
6. 1Cor.15:6--After that he was seen of 500 brethren.
7. 1Cor. 15:7--After that he was seen of James, then of all the apostles.
8. Luke 24:44-49--He appears to the disciples and expounds to them the law. He opens their understanding. He gives them the Great Commission once again in verses 47 and 48.
9. Acts 1:3-8--These are the events preceding the ascension. Once again immediately before the ascension he says:
You shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
10. Then they watch, and his ascension occurs.

Those are the events as recorded by a chronological Bible.
Whatever way you look at it, the episode of Jesus telling Peter to feed my sheep/lambs is not the Great Commission. It never was.

 

[DHK]

The New Calvinism:

If you really want to follow the development of conservative Christianity, track its musical hits. In the early 1900s you might have heard "The Old Rugged Cross," a celebration of the atonement. By the 1980s you could have shared the Jesus-is-my-buddy intimacy of "Shine, Jesus, Shine." And today, more and more top songs feature a God who is very big, while we are...well, hark the David Crowder Band: "I am full of earth/ You are heaven's worth/ I am stained with dirt/ Prone to depravity."
Calvinism is back, and not just musically. John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
Like the Calvinists, more moderate Evangelicals are exploring cures for the movement's doctrinal drift, but can't offer the same blanket assurance. "A lot of young people grew up in a culture of brokenness, divorce, drugs or sexual temptation," says Collin Hansen, author of Young, Restless, Reformed: A Journalist's Journey with the New Calvinists. "They have plenty of friends: what they need is a God." Mohler says, "The moment someone begins to define God's [being or actions] biblically, that person is drawn to conclusions that are traditionally classified as Calvinist." Of course, that presumption of inevitability has drawn accusations of arrogance and divisiveness since Calvin's time. Indeed, some of today's enthusiasts imply that non-Calvinists may actually not be Christians. Skirmishes among the Southern Baptists (who have a competing non-Calvinist camp) and online "flame wars" bode badly.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html


Still unconvinced??