Free Will vs. Free Agency

[prophet]

The short answer if men can't see how wicked their will is they will not see it the way I do.

It is our heart, the seat of our emotions, that is wicked.

Our will is amoral.
It can be exercised, to do both good and evil, righteousness and wickedness.

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it?


Rom 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

 

[psalms109:31]

It is our heart, the seat of our emotions, that is wicked.

Our will is amoral.
It can be exercised, to do both good and evil, righteousness and wickedness.

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it?


Rom 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

I know most don't want to come to the conclusion that what they have believed is a lie. It is the will not our conscience not our emotions when we get a heart of flesh that begins to care and love again and no longer have a hard heart hardened not to care

Jesus said not my will but your will be done. You can't continue to ignore.

It is your will that is wicked that uses emotions like hate wrongly.

Emotions are good when you use emotions to fight the will to do evil, to do good as God is directing us to do not your will but His will.

Jesus had compassion on them for they were sheep without a Shephard, emotions

Feed my sheep feed my lamb was very emotional don't see emotions as evil they are only evil if you use them that way.

When we turn away from our emotions like love and those that helps us to do the will of God we are no better than those with a hard heart

 

[psalms109:31]

In essence then, when you stated......

Psalm109:31 - "A free agency can stay on the losing team and have fun and do what ever the will wants and die in your sin or you can go on the winning team it is going to be easy believes but you will have to fight against this will you think is free and turn to Jesus and learn from Him and you will find rest for your soul".....

.....a free agency does not necessarily die in their sins, they can be born-again and NOT die in their sin, and be on the winning team, even though they still do whatever the will wants at times.

You are not stating my words you changed them, I said they struggle with them does not mean they do them.

We all struggle, but we fight our will, you are not being honest in changing my words as how you want them or see them.

1 John 3:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It isn't easy believism

 

[Inspector Javert]

I know most don't want to come to the conclusion that what they have believed is a lie.

That isn't the problem.
The problem is that to argue a difference between having a free "will" and being a free "agent" is simply semantic non-sense.

Emotions are good when you use emotions to fight the will to do evil, to do good as God is directing us to do not your will but His will.

Yes, and the normally understood term used to describe that particular ability is called one's "WILL".

What word would you use to describe that facet of mankind which enables him to make that decision??
If you refuse to call it the "will". What will you use?.....

Pancreas?

When we turn away from our emotions like love and those that helps us to do the will of God

And what word do normal human beings use to describe that functionary which deliberates and decides on such a choice?????

Here's a hint:
It's the "WILL".

If you and Spurgeon want to pretend to new definitions of 6,000 year-old Universally understood concepts...than you need to find a word for it.

May I suggest.......coccix?

we are no better than those with a hard heart

What is a "hard-heart" other than someone who's "WILL" is set against God?


I know you like Spurgeon and all, but the very concept behind this thread and Spurgeon's sermon is semantical gobbledygook.
It's akin to the prevarications of college sophomores debating whether or not they themselves exist.

You'd do yourself a favour to understand that SOMETIMES....even Spurgeon speaks non-sense....and this sermon of his is one of those times.

 

[prophet]

That isn't the problem.
The problem is that to argue a difference between having a free "will" and being a free "agent" is simply semantic non-sense.

Yes, and the normally understood term used to describe that particular ability is called one's "WILL".

What word would you use to describe that facet of mankind which enables him to make that decision??
If you refuse to call it the "will". What will you use?.....

Pancreas?

And what word do normal human beings use to describe that functionary which deliberates and decides on such a choice?????

Here's a hint:
It's the "WILL".

If you and Spurgeon want to pretend to new definitions of 6,000 year-old Universally understood concepts...than you need to find a word for it.

May I suggest.......coccix?

What is a "hard-heart" other than someone who's "WILL" is set against God?


I know you like Spurgeon and all, but the very concept behind this thread and Spurgeon's sermon is semantical gobbledygook.
It's akin to the prevarications of college sophomores debating whether or not they themselves exist.

You'd do yourself a favour to understand that SOMETIMES....even Spurgeon speaks non-sense....and this sermon of his is one of those times.

Excellent post.

 

[prophet]

I know most don't want to come to the conclusion that what they have believed is a lie. It is the will not our conscience not our emotions when we get a heart of flesh that begins to care and love again and no longer have a hard heart hardened not to care

Jesus said not my will but your will be done. You can't continue to ignore.

It is your will that is wicked that uses emotions like hate wrongly.

Emotions are good when you use emotions to fight the will to do evil, to do good as God is directing us to do not your will but His will.

Jesus had compassion on them for they were sheep without a Shephard, emotions

Feed my sheep feed my lamb was very emotional don't see emotions as evil they are only evil if you use them that way.

When we turn away from our emotions like love and those that helps us to do the will of God we are no better than those with a hard heart

Emotions are involuntary, and can be controlled by external stimuli.

We have a will, that allows us to make decisions sort from these involuntary reactions.

Love is not an involuntary reaction, lust is a result of one.
Love is a choice, an act of our will.

 

[JonC]

Emotions are involuntary, and can be controlled by external stimuli.

We have a will, that allows us to make decisions sort from these involuntary reactions.

Love is not an involuntary reaction, lust is a result of one.
Love is a choice, an act of our will.

I don’t think that Spurgeon was denying the existence of our will. To the contrary, it seems (by reading the sermon) that he denies the “free” part with free being uninfluenced (i.e., bound by our nature). He is insisting that natural man has a will and God has a will (and they are not the same). Of course our actions are not involuntary reactions (I’m not sure where you arrived at that conclusion). It is one thing to say that our choices are ours, it is another to say that our will is beyond influence and is therefore free.

Personally, I think that it does not make very much sense to divorce the will of man from man himself (as if the will is somehow independent of the man). But to assume that the will is not influenced by both external and internal stimuli seems doubtful. What you are describing is free agency (making choices although not necessarily via an uninfluenced will).

 

[prophet]

I don’t think that Spurgeon was denying the existence of our will. To the contrary, it seems (by reading the sermon) that he denies the “free” part with free being uninfluenced (i.e., bound by our nature). He is insisting that natural man has a will and God has a will (and they are not the same). Of course our actions are not involuntary reactions (I’m not sure where you arrived at that conclusion). It is one thing to say that our choices are ours, it is another to say that our will is beyond influence and is therefore free.

Personally, I think that it does not make very much sense to divorce the will of man from man himself (as if the will is somehow independent of the man). But to assume that the will is not influenced by both external and internal stimuli seems doubtful. What you are describing is free agency (making choices although not necessarily via an uninfluenced will).

Sorry, you are all over the map, here, I can't make out what you're saying.

 

[JonC]

Sorry, you are all over the map, here, I can't make out what you're saying.

I apologize. Had to run to the store and unfortunately was not clear. This is what I was trying to say:

1. Spurgeon was not denying the existence of our will. To the contrary, it seems (by reading the sermon in the OP) that he denies the “free” part (i.e., a will that is truly free - uninfluenced and not bound by our nature).

2. The text of the sermon indicates that natural man has a will and that God has a will. Spurgeon seems to indicate that these wills are not the same.

3. You mentioned that “we have a will, that allows us to make decisions sort from these involuntary reactions.” I am not sure that I addressed this adequately now that I re-read the statement. You may have lost me there (the sentence doesn’t make sense). But what I initially took you to mean was that emotions are involuntary and can be controlled by external stimuli but not so with our will. If you are saying that our will is beyond influence (libertarian free will) then I disagree and humbly ask for a more detailed explanation.

4. It is one thing to say that our choices are ours (that we act as free agents - we make our choices) yet it is another to say that our will is beyond influence and is therefore free. (There is, of course, a difference between free-will and free agency).

My second paragraph was just a personal doubt that one can separate the “will” and deal with it apart from man’s nature anyway. My point is that we are capable of making choices (free agency) but our will is influenced by our nature. I hope this helps clarify.

 

[prophet]

I apologize. Had to run to the store and unfortunately was not clear. This is what I was trying to say:

1. Spurgeon was not denying the existence of our will. To the contrary, it seems (by reading the sermon in the OP) that he denies the “free” part (i.e., a will that is truly free - uninfluenced and not bound by our nature).

2.The text of the sermon indicates that natural man has a will and that God has a will. Spurgeon seems to indicate that these wills are not the same.

3.You mentioned that “we have a will, that allows us to make decisions sort from these involuntary reactions.” I am not sure that I addressed this adequately now that I re-read the statement. You may have lost me there (the sentence doesn’t make sense). But what I initially took you to mean was that emotions are involuntary and can be controlled by external stimuli but not so with our will. If you are saying that our will is beyond influence (libertarian free will) then I disagree and humbly ask for a more detailed explanation.

4.It is one thing to say that our choices are ours (that we act as free agents - we make our choices) yet it is another to say that our will is beyond influence and is therefore free. (There is, of course, a difference between free-will and free agency).

My second paragraph was just a personal doubt that one can separate the “will” and deal with it apart from man’s nature anyway. My point is that we are capable of making choices (free agency) but our will is influenced by our nature. I hope this helps clarify.

Let me adrress point 1.

Our will is not free from influence.
It is free from force, coercion.

God allows us to make choices, even Heaven and Hell.
Spurgeon was wrong, as was Calvin on this.

 

[Winman]

I know most don't want to come to the conclusion that what they have believed is a lie. It is the will not our conscience not our emotions when we get a heart of flesh that begins to care and love again and no longer have a hard heart hardened not to care

Jesus said not my will but your will be done. You can't continue to ignore.

It is your will that is wicked that uses emotions like hate wrongly.

Emotions are good when you use emotions to fight the will to do evil, to do good as God is directing us to do not your will but His will.

Jesus had compassion on them for they were sheep without a Shephard, emotions

Feed my sheep feed my lamb was very emotional don't see emotions as evil they are only evil if you use them that way.

When we turn away from our emotions like love and those that helps us to do the will of God we are no better than those with a hard heart

Spurgeon was wrong, Jesus himself showed a man can will to do God's will.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The word "if" in this verse is very important, it implies that men have the ability to will as God wills. Also note that Jesus said "any man", so any man could will (and do) as God wills if he chooses to do so. If men were bound by a sinful nature so that they could not will as God wills, then Jesus could not honestly imply they could.

Total Inability is a complete lie.

All this other stuff is playing with words, nobody is free of influence including God himself. The scripture teaches that God listens to and answers prayer, so even God is able to be influenced.

Every man can choose Jesus or reject him, that is free will.

 

[steaver]

You are not stating my words you changed them, I said they struggle with them does not mean they do them.

We all struggle, but we fight our will, you are not being honest in changing my words as how you want them or see them.

1 John 3:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It isn't easy believism

Brother, I quoted your words, I changed nothing.

So what is "easy believism" ? Is that when one believes that it is by grace through faith alone that one is justified and not by works, and not of oneself, created in Christ Jesus unto good works?

 

[psalms109:31]

Brother, I quoted your words, I changed nothing.

So what is "easy believism" ? Is that when one believes that it is by grace through faith alone that one is justified and not by works, and not of oneself, created in Christ Jesus unto good works?

".....a free agency does not necessarily die in their sins, they can be born-again and NOT die in their sin, and be on the winning team, even though they still do whatever the will wants at times."

This is not at all what I said I keep addressing it this is what you think i am saying and you keep doing a maneuver saying I haven't.

 

[psalms109:31]

The the rest I can care less what Surgeon had to say if scripture does not agree with him. If I didn't have scripture to back him up i would agree with you all, but I do.

Think, do not let ideas move you and just think about what Spurgeon said and this scripture and why i have come up with what I have by scripture not by Spugeon.

"will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul,"

C.H. Spurgeon

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

The will of Jesus will of His flesh was to live not to suffer, the Fathers will is to be the lamb to the slaughter a lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Something else inside Jesus said not my will but your will be done. How can you get His free will when He said not my will?

It is Jesus life to Himself God granted Him, it is the free agency. Spurgeon just helped me give it a name

 

[psalms109:31]

I don’t think that Spurgeon was denying the existence of our will. To the contrary, it seems (by reading the sermon) that he denies the “free” part with free being uninfluenced (i.e., bound by our nature). He is insisting that natural man has a will and God has a will (and they are not the same). Of course our actions are not involuntary reactions (I’m not sure where you arrived at that conclusion). It is one thing to say that our choices are ours, it is another to say that our will is beyond influence and is therefore free.

Personally, I think that it does not make very much sense to divorce the will of man from man himself (as if the will is somehow independent of the man). But to assume that the will is not influenced by both external and internal stimuli seems doubtful. What you are describing is free agency (making choices although not necessarily via an uninfluenced will).

Thank you, I agree with this.

 

[psalms109:31]

Spurgeon was wrong, Jesus himself showed a man can will to do God's will.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The word "if" in this verse is very important, it implies that men have the ability to will as God wills. Also note that Jesus said "any man", so any man could will (and do) as God wills if he chooses to do so. If men were bound by a sinful nature so that they could not will as God wills, then Jesus could not honestly imply they could.

Total Inability is a complete lie.

All this other stuff is playing with words, nobody is free of influence including God himself. The scripture teaches that God listens to and answers prayer, so even God is able to be influenced.

Every man can choose Jesus or reject him, that is free will.

We can take on His will and make it our own but it still did not come from us. I still can't see where you get free from it.


John 1:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


We have total inability, but when the world of God gives us the Spirit and life through His word we can do what is impossible turn to God, but we walk away we walk away from Life.


John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.


Jesus said His word is Spirit and life what we are missing to do the will of God.

We can do as Jesus said not my will but your will be done.


John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[Winman]

We can take on His will and make it our own. I still can't see where you get free from it.

You are still just playing with words, nobody is "free" of influence, including God. But we can either choose Jesus or reject him, this is "free will".

Even God says man has free will.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

God himself said "any man" of the Jews could make an offering, which is an act of worship toward God, with "his own voluntary will". That is free will my friend, from the lips of God himself. And God said he would accept this act of worship to make atonement for that man. This utterly refutes Total Inability.

We have total inability, but when the world of God gives us the Spirit and life through His word we can do what is impossible turn to God, but we walk away we walk away from Life.

There is one kind of "inability", no man is born knowing the gospel, and no man could ever conceive the gospel on his own. But once man hears the gospel, he can either choose to believe on Jesus Christ, or reject him. This is free will.

Jesus said His word is Spirit and life what we are missing to do the will of God.

Show the scripture that says that, you can't do it. If you are saying we cannot believe on Jesus unless we hear the gospel, I agree. Not really sure what you are saying here.

We can do as Jesus said not my will but your will be done.

No, Jesus implied that any man can will to do as God wills (Jhn 7:17)

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

You are infatuated with Spurgeon, that is idolatry. He was just a man like any other and made many mistakes. This saying man does not have free will is semantics, playing with words. God himself said men have free will, Jesus implied any man can will to do God's will.

Spurgeon spent too much time reading the doctrines of men like Bondage of the Will. He should have stayed with scripture, and so should you. Spurgeon won't get you to heaven.

 

[psalms109:31]

You are still just playing with words, nobody is "free" of influence, including God. But we can either choose Jesus or reject him, this is "free will".

Even God says man has free will.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
God himself said "any man" of the Jews could make an offering, which is an act of worship toward God, with "his own voluntary will". That is free will my friend, from the lips of God himself. And God said he would accept this act of worship to make atonement for that man. This utterly refutes Total Inability..

Do you think the "free will offering" saved him, you think men following the Law will save them.
John said this

John 1:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but of God.

and Jesus said this

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

I've learned from John, Jesus and Paul not to trust in this will it is a slave to sin. Free will and the Law both teaches us our will is not the answer. That it is not human will, or man's will but of God.

We should not give freedom to it, but do as Jesus said not my will but your will be done.

Do you really think your will saved you John said no.

I have no problem we can turn from our will and turn to the will of God, because we are not saved by the will of man.

I want to know how you understand free will and not being the will of man or human will and Jesus saying not my will but your will be done?

It tells me something else within us turns from our will to God's will. I just call it the free agency

There is one kind of "inability", no man is born knowing the gospel, and no man could ever conceive the gospel on his own. But once man hears the gospel, he can either choose to believe on Jesus Christ, or reject him. This is free will..

I agree all but free will, it is not by the will of man but by the will of God

Show the scripture that says that, you can't do it. If you are saying we cannot believe on Jesus unless we hear the gospel, I agree. Not really sure what you are saying here. .

I do not disagree with scripture I don't use Scripture to tell people they can't come, i use it to get people to turn away from their self and turn to God to save them.

No, Jesus implied that any man can will to do as God wills (Jhn 7:17).

But the scripture declares it is not by our will human or man's will.

You are infatuated with Spurgeon, that is idolatry. He was just a man like any other and made many mistakes. This saying man does not have free will is semantics, playing with words. God himself said men have free will, Jesus implied any man can will to do God's will. .

I use Spurgeon to talk to Calvinist Spurgeon I like his teaching and find his love for mankind and see them saved by Christ is awesome, but he is not my Rabbi, Christ is. Jesus still said not my will but your will.

Spurgeon spent too much time reading the doctrines of men like Bondage of the Will. He should have stayed with scripture, and so should you. Spurgeon won't get you to heaven.

Spurgeon can't save me, but he brought many to Christ so that He will save them by the will of God.

 

[Winman]

Do you think the "free will offering" saved him, you think men following the Law will save them.

Of course not, but it was a sin offering. You confessed you were a sinner when you gave this offering. And God said he would accept this offering as atonement for that man. It is God who forgives.

John said this

John 1:
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but of God.

You cannot inherit eternal life from your parents (blood) and you cannot will yourself to be born again, it is not within our power. This does not mean a man cannot will to accept Christ and be born again. I believe you are misinterpreting verse 13.

and Jesus said this

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Who would want to be beaten and hung on a cross to die? This does not mean Jesus's will was always opposed to God's will.

I've learned from John, Jesus and Paul not to trust in this will it is a slave to sin. Free will and the Law both teaches us our will is not the answer. That it is not human will, or man's will but of God.

No, you've listened to Reformed teachers like Luther and Spurgeon. Jesus implied that man can will to do God's will, I have already showed you the scripture.

We should not give freedom to it, but do as Jesus said not my will but your will be done.

Again, you are talking about a very special case here, no one would want to be tortured and die on a cross.

Do you really think your will saved you John said no.

Of course not, I have no power to save myself. But I did have to be willing to be saved. Jesus said you WILL NOT come to me.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Why weren't these persons saved? Because they were not WILLING to come to Jesus. Therefore you must be willing to be saved. Much scripture supports this.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You have to be willing to be saved.

I have no problem we can turn from our will and turn to the will of God, because we are not saved by the will of man.

No, you can turn from being unwilling and become willing. Total inability is a lie.

I want to know how you understand free will and not being the will of man or human will and Jesus saying not my will but your will be done?

Free will is the ability to make a choice. If we are slaves of our will, then Jesus could not have chosen to do his Father's will.

It tells me something else within us turns from our will to God's will. I just call it the free agency

Semantics, word games.

I agree all but free will, it is not by the will of man but by the will of God

Again, you cannot will yourself to be born again, it is not something you can perform in any way, but you must be willing to take the water of life, you must be willing to come to Jesus. It is Jesus that has the power to cause you to be born again.

I do not disagree with scripture I don't use Scripture to tell people they can't come, i use it to get people to turn away from their self and turn to God to save them.

But the scripture declares it is not by our will human or man's will.

Just repeating yourself over and over. You must be willing to come to Jesus, you must be willing to receive the water of life.

I use Spurgeon to talk to Calvinist Spurgeon I like his teaching and find his love for mankind and see them saved by Christ is awesome, but he is not my Rabbi, Christ is. Jesus still said not my will but your will.

Spurgeon can't save me, but he brought many to Christ so that He will save them by the will of God.

He also taught a lot of serious error like calling Calvinism the gospel. Calvinism is absolutely NOT the gospel.

Spurgeon was just a man, just a man.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me adrress point 1.

Our will is not free from influence.
It is free from force, coercion.

God allows us to make choices, even Heaven and Hell.
Spurgeon was wrong, as was Calvin on this.[
/QUOTE]

As also was Jesus and the Apostles, correct?

As jesus said that the heart/human nature is corrupt and vile, and that it manifests outwardly in our mouths and deeds!

God is sovereign, and since he didi not leave anything to 'chance/will" that had to be done in order to save sinners thru and by Cross, why would now decide to leave it all up to sinners to save themselves?