The Way of the Master. Arminian or 2-Pt Calvinist?

[evangelist6589]

WOTM is am awesome evangelism program however it does not teach the doctrine of The effectual calling of the Spirit and thinks that only the moral law is the way to awaken sinners and not the spirit. I believe Comfort holds total depravity although he may not. Reisinger has been teaching me a ton and all he does is quote scripture and explain it. He is a gift to the church and his books equip the saints.

What I fail to understand is how an Arminian evangelism philosophy can hold to Lordship salvation.

 

[RLBosley]

I've heard Comfort call himself a Calminian - whatever that means. IIRC he believes in total depravity and perseverance. But I've also heard someone (here?) say that Ray was taken through TULIP and agreed to each point. I find that unlikely since Ray's background is Calvary Chapel.

What Reisinger do you refer to?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

WOTM is am awesome evangelism program however it does not teach the doctrine of The effectual calling of the Spirit and thinks that only the moral law is the way to awaken sinners and not the spirit. I believe Comfort holds total depravity although he may not. Reisinger has been teaching me a ton and all he does is quote scripture and explain it. He is a gift to the church and his books equip the saints.

What I fail to understand is how an Arminian evangelism philosophy can hold to Lordship salvation.

What, if I may ask is a 2 point Calvinist?

 

[Yeshua1]

WOTM is am awesome evangelism program however it does not teach the doctrine of The effectual calling of the Spirit and thinks that only the moral law is the way to awaken sinners and not the spirit. I believe Comfort holds total depravity although he may not. Reisinger has been teaching me a ton and all he does is quote scripture and explain it. He is a gift to the church and his books equip the saints.

What I fail to understand is how an Arminian evangelism philosophy can hold to Lordship salvation.

He would seem to be one who holds that while we were all sinners due to the fall, that we still have the means within us allowed by God to have the law convict us, and to lead us to faith in Jesus!

The main problems that I have are:

he seems to make getting rid of all past sin habits his definition of real repenting and receiving jesus
he makes the law basis of what to give to sinners, not the Gospel per say
he assumes that a sinner can by his own efforts hear and believe in Jesus

 

[Winman]

WOTM is am awesome evangelism program however it does not teach the doctrine of The effectual calling of the Spirit and thinks that only the moral law is the way to awaken sinners and not the spirit. I believe Comfort holds total depravity although he may not. Reisinger has been teaching me a ton and all he does is quote scripture and explain it. He is a gift to the church and his books equip the saints.

What I fail to understand is how an Arminian evangelism philosophy can hold to Lordship salvation.

All Arminians hold to Lordship Salvation. You must endure to the end obeying Jesus to be saved. This is called Perseverance of the Saints and is exactly what Calvinists believe.

Most Baptists are not Arminian. They believe in free will like Arminians, but they believe in eternal security, however not because they will persevere.

I am not saved because I will always be faithful to Jesus, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. This is called Preservation of the Saints.

 

[padredurand]

What, if I may ask is a 2 point Calvinist?

An Arminian. :tongue3:

 

[evangelist6589]

I've heard Comfort call himself a Calminian - whatever that means. IIRC he believes in total depravity and perseverance. But I've also heard someone (here?) say that Ray was taken through TULIP and agreed to each point. I find that unlikely since Ray's background is Calvary Chapel.

What Reisinger do you refer to?

Ernest Reisinger.

 

[evangelist6589]

What, if I may ask is a 2 point Calvinist?

One whom folds to Total Depravity and Perseverance.

 

[evangelist6589]

All Arminians hold to Lordship Salvation. You must endure to the end obeying Jesus to be saved. This is called Perseverance of the Saints and is exactly what Calvinists believe.

Most Baptists are not Arminian. They believe in free will like Arminians, but they believe in eternal security, however not because they will persevere.

I am not saved because I will always be faithful to Jesus, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. This is called Preservation of the Saints.

Yet you argue against Lordship with most of your posts. Hogwash!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Yet you argue against Lordship with most of your posts. Hogwash!

Lordship Salvation is not what Winman described. Lordship Salvation is that + the belief that we dare not sin in Christ, willingly or otherwise. To the one who teaches Lordship salvation, first I must renounce all my sins, deny myself of any pleasure that is looked upon as unwholesome, take up the cross and follow Him.

All well and good -- until I have an impure thought. not to mention a few choice muttered words, about the driver who zoomed up behind me, swerved out into the left lane to pass me and darted back in a bare 100 feet from his exit, forcing me to slam on my brakes.

All well and good -- until one is caught just looking at another person with a degree of lust, since it is classed by Jesus Christ as adultery. I'd be lying if I were to say that had not happened since conversion.

All well and good -- until I call someone a fool without a proper cause, which is classed as murder.

All well and good -- until I exhibit snobbery, which also is classified as murder, according to the Apostle James. I've been haughty and pretentious at least once -- or maybe more (if you can believe that :smilewinkgrin: ) -- since I believed.

All well and good -- until you consider my wife and I are both divorcees, which Jesus, of course, calls adultery.

The extremes of the teaching of Lordship Salvation are very nearly heretical, in that those who espouse them dare to judge the salvation of those they see as "in sin." Jesus is indeed Lord of all, or He is not Lord at all -- but that doesn't mean every sin committed by a Christian makes his/her salvation questionable. Not even persistent sin, which is an addiction or a compulsion that we have not surrendered to God.

Which of course leads to the Lordship people telling me "Then He isn't your Lord!" Horse hockey!!! There is a reason sanctification is progressive -- but they generally deny that, too.

Those with that teaching can go take a flying leap.

[/thread derail]

 

[Winman]

Yet you argue against Lordship with most of your posts. Hogwash!

What hogwash? I believe in preservation of the saints, not perseverance. Preservation is not Lordship Salvation.

The reason I cannot lose salvation is the moment I believed my spirit was joined to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Just as your physical body is a fusion of your mother and father's bodies, our spirit is a fusion of our natural spirit we were born with and the Holy Spirit. We are now a new creature, just as you are not your mother, and you are not your father, but you are a new creature, an individual.

And as physical birth takes two parents, spiritual birth takes two parents, our spirit and the Holy Spirit which come together to create a new creation. We are now partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We are not God, but we do partake of his divine nature.

This is why we cannot lose salvation, because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us, and we cannot continuously sin. So we cannot fall away in unbelief, we are preserved by Jesus "in us".

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So, as you see, I am not persevering, I am not working out my salvation, I am not enduring to the end. Jesus is "in me" and has promised that he will never leave me nor forsake me, I am PRESERVED.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This is probably something very new to you. I am not working myself to heaven.

 

[Winman]

Lordship Salvation is not what Winman described.

You will never find anyone, anywhere, at any time that can tell you what Lordship Salvation is, even the people that say it is what the scriptures teach.

They cannot tell you how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, nor how disobedient you can be to prove you are not saved. All they know is that they are saved, and in their estimation or judgment you are not.

You won't be able to describe it any better.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

You will never find anyone, anywhere, at any time that can tell you what Lordship Salvation is, even the people that say it is what the scriptures teach.

They cannot tell you how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, nor how disobedient you can be to prove you are not saved. All they know is that they are saved, and in their estimation or judgment you are not.

You won't be able to describe it any better.

I think it's easier to describe what's it's not, which is what I attempted to do there. But you and I both know, that's a lost cause. :thumbsup:

 

[JamesL]

What I fail to understand is how an Arminian evangelism philosophy can hold to Lordship salvation.

I believe Winman got close:

All Arminians hold to Lordship Salvation. You must endure to the end obeying Jesus to be saved. This is called Perseverance of the Saints and is exactly what Calvinists believe.

Most Baptists are not Arminian. They believe in free will like Arminians, but they believe in eternal security, however not because they will persevere.

I am not saved because I will always be faithful to Jesus, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. This is called Preservation of the Saints.

However, it isn't only about persevering (which relates to one's status at the end of his life), it also has to do with now.

I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church. The pastor who was there up til I was about 8 years old, was Arminian thru and thru. The pastor who succeeded him was Calvinist thru and thru.
Both pastors espoused Lordship Salvation. How is that?


I remember hearing both pastors use the same exact line:

"Saved folks got saved ways"

On the one hand (Calvinist LS) it goes like this - if you have any evidence that you haven't devoted every part of your life to Christ, then you are not (have never been) saved.

On the other hand (Arminian LS) it goes like this - if you have any evidence that you haven't devoted every part of your life to Christ, then you are not (no longer) saved.

If both pastors refrain from the nuts and bolts of HOW the one is deemed not saved, then both will say the same thing, in almost exactly the same words.

They can try to teach that salvation is through Christ alone, but both brands of Lordship Salvation turn the focus back to the believer to continue investigating his own merit.


That's what leads to people walking in the flesh, and continually failing. They find no rest in the promise of assurance because there are works strings attached in each brand.


I once worked with an Arminian (Assembly of God) evangelist. At lunch time, we would listen to Christian radio. On more than one occasion, we listened to John MacArthur's "Works to You" radio broadcast, and heard Mac's infamous line:

"Christ is either Lord OF all, or He's not Lord AT all."


Every time that Arminian evangelist heard that Calvinist's Lordship Salvation line, he would "Amen"

 

[JohnDeereFan]

WOTM is am awesome evangelism program however it does not teach the doctrine of The effectual calling of the Spirit

Your claim isn't consistent with what I've heard from Todd and the gang at WotM.

and thinks that only the moral law is the way to awaken sinners and not the spirit.

And the difference is...?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I've heard Comfort call himself a Calminian - whatever that means.

It's a joke. It just means that he doesn't want to talk about that subject because, no matter what he says, it will generate angry letters and distract WOTM from it's ministry.

 

[RLBosley]

It's a joke. It just means that he doesn't want to talk about that subject because, no matter what he says, it will generate angry letters and distract WOTM from it's ministry.

I know. My "whatever that means" was also a joke. I didn't make that very clear. My bad. :thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

What, if I may ask is a 2 point Calvinist?

....

 

[webdog]

Yet you argue against Lordship with most of your posts. Hogwash!

Arminiams can hold to some LS aspects as Winman pointed out, such as the P in TULIP, but I don't even know an arminian that believes in an upfront commitment of promising to stop sinning in exchange for salvation, the very things stated by LS advocates like Macarthur. The unregenerate cannot make such commitments.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

....

Ive never heard of anyone identifying themselves as a 2 point Calvinist. Thats a very loose & arbitrary distinction.