On a South Sea Island.....

[Salty]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

 

[preachinjesus]

Well, the Bible didn't exist until AD 397 and the Synod of Carthage so....

 

[Crabtownboy]

God will be as loving and fair to him as he is to us. I do not see God as unjust. I do see God as loving? I leave such questions as yours up to God. In time we all will know the answer.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

How did King Nebuchadnezzar know what the Son of God looked like ? Why did David ask us to kiss him ?

God is in control. He would not allow one of his children to pass without the word coming to them. And his flock will know his voice.

 

[Deacon]

So what Salty's asking is:


How can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him?
How can they believe in him if they have never heard about him?
How can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

Romans 10:14

Rob

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

With opposition sure to follow, I reiterate what I've said many, many times. Paul wrote to the Roman church regarding this issue.

Romans 2, NASB
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

First, Paul writes that "the doers of the Law" will be justified. Then he examines those "who do have the law." In v. 14, though the NASB and other versions capitalize the first "Law" to indicate the Mosaic Law, the second use of the word "law" is the same Greek word as the first -- nomos. In this context, both mean "a law or rule producing a state approved by God, by observation of which is approved of God."

To "have the Law" requires someone bringing it to you. So it is with the Gospel. Both are essentially boiled down simply to "Love God, love others." One cannot "love God" or "love others" without the very presence of God within them. It is otherwise impossible. Why? Because it is "the work of the law written in their hearts." Those who have heard the Law or the Gospel and do not exhibit the "work of the law written on their hearts" do not believe for salvation. It is that simple.

This passage explains how those who have never heard the Law or the Gospel are nonetheless judged based on "the secrets of [their] hearts" through Jesus Christ.

If the South Sea islander looks up, realizes there is One greater than himself, that without that One he has no personal hope for anything but the life he has and then orders his life according to that knowledge -- providing he has never had the opportunity to hear the true Gospel -- he will be judged by his own thoughts, which, according to v. 15, will either accuse or defend him.

Abram didn't know Christ's name. He didn't know the "plan of salvation." He wasn't "born again" as a result of hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He simply believed what God said, and all God said to Him was "I'm here. I have a plan. You are a major part of that plan. Out of that plan will come salvation for you and for your offspring." Abram believed, and it was credit to him as righteousness.

So will it be with that South Sea Islander.

 

[Judith]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

There is only one way to be saved and that is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The person has to get to someplace to hear or someone has to go and tell. If God can transport Steven to tell someone the story He can do the same for someone on an island if He so desires, but His one way to salvation will not be compromised. If you hear and accept you are saved. If you do not hear to accept you end up in hell, no exceptions. And no it is not open to discussion as God has given one way and closed the door.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There is only one way to be saved and that is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The person has to get to someplace to hear or someone has to go and tell.

So Salty's South Sea islander is doomed because some guy with a seminary degree and a missions grant didn't make it to him in time?

If God can transport Steven to tell someone the story ...

I believe you mean "Philip" -- and I'd classify those as special circumstances, unless you can point me to someone whose been teleported across the globe by God to preach the Gospel recently?

Romans 2:11-16 is properly exegeted in the post before yours. You might want to take a quick look at it.

 

[quantumfaith]

With opposition sure to follow, I reiterate what I've said many, many times. Paul wrote to the Roman church regarding this issue.

Romans 2, NASB
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

First, Paul writes that "the doers of the Law" will be justified. Then he examines those "who do have the law." In v. 14, though the NASB and other versions capitalize the first "Law" to indicate the Mosaic Law, the second use of the word "law" is the same Greek word as the first -- nomos. In this context, both mean "a law or rule producing a state approved by God, by observation of which is approved of God."

To "have the Law" requires someone bringing it to you. So it is with the Gospel. Both are essentially boiled down simply to "Love God, love others." One cannot "love God" or "love others" without the very presence of God within them. It is otherwise impossible. Why? Because it is "the work of the law written in their hearts." Those who have heard the Law or the Gospel and do not exhibit the "work of the law written on their hearts" do not believe for salvation. It is that simple.

This passage explains how those who have never heard the Law or the Gospel are nonetheless judged based on "the secrets of [their] hearts" through Jesus Christ.

If the South Sea islander looks up, realizes there is One greater than himself, that without that One he has no personal hope for anything but the life he has and then orders his life according to that knowledge -- providing he has never had the opportunity to hear the true Gospel -- he will be judged by his own thoughts, which, according to v. 15, will either accuse or defend him.

Abram didn't know Christ's name. He didn't know the "plan of salvation." He wasn't "born again" as a result of hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He simply believed what God said, and all God said to Him was "I'm here. I have a plan. You are a major part of that plan. Out of that plan will come salvation for you and for your offspring." Abram believed, and it was credit to him as righteousness.

So will it be with that South Sea Islander.

Good words and thoughts, thanks for articulating.

 

[Deacon]

Sounds like the Crossless Gospel.

Rob

 

[quantumfaith]

Sounds like the Crossless Gospel.

Rob

Can you explain....I am unfamiliar.

 

[Deacon]

It's a view far to the right of the Free-Grace movement.

“How to Lead People to Christ: Part 1, the Content of Our Message.” [LINK]
by Zane C. Hodges

Let me begin with a strange scenario. Try to imagine an unsaved person marooned on a tiny, uninhabited island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. He has never heard about Christianity in his life. One day a wave washes a fragment of paper up onto the beach. It is wet but still partly readable.
On that paper are the words of John 6:43-47. But the only readable portions are: “Jesus therefore answered and said to them” (v 43) and “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life” (v 47).
Now suppose that our unsaved man somehow becomes convinced that this person called Jesus can guarantee his eternal future, since He promises everlasting life. In other words, he believes Jesus’ words in John 6:47. Is he saved?
I suspect that there are some grace people who would say that this man is not saved because he doesn’t know enough. For example, he doesn’t know that Jesus died for his sins on the cross and rose again the third day. Needless to say, there is a lot more he doesn’t know either, such as the doctrine of the Trinity, the eternal Sonship of Jesus or the doctrine of the virgin birth.
But why is he not saved if he believes the promise of Jesus’ words? It is precisely the ability of Jesus to guarantee eternal life that makes Him the Christ in the Johannine sense of that term. Our Lord’s exchange with Martha in John 11:25-27 demonstrates this clearly.

Rob

 

[Deacon]

This hypothetical man merely knows that there is a mighty god.
The heathen believed this in ages past – even sacrificing their children before his image.

• Your man doesn't know that he needs saving.
• He doesn't know that he is a sinner.
• He doesn't know that the result of his sin is death.
• He doesn't know Jesus died in his place.
• He doesn't know his Savior rose from the grave.
• He doesn't' know that his Savior lives today.
• He doesn't know that his Savior offers forgiveness of sin and a place of righteousness before God.

God is righteous and judges man according to the light given to them.

Romans says that man rejected that light and chooses darkness.

If this hypothetical "believer" trusts God, then God will provide a way of salvation.

A preacher, a written gospel, a verbal communication, an angel of light… our God is an awesome God.

But this man needs to hear the gospel to be saved.

This is why each of us are called to share the gospel!

Without it they will perish.

Rob

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

No. Sounds harsh, but the Bible only gives one way for a man to be saved. If God has elected them unto salvation, then He'll get a preacher to them.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

• Your man doesn't know that he needs saving.
• He doesn't know that he is a sinner.
• He doesn't know that the result of his sin is death.
• He doesn't know Jesus died in his place.
• He doesn't know his Savior rose from the grave.
• He doesn't' know that his Savior lives today.
• He doesn't know that his Savior offers forgiveness of sin and a place of righteousness before God.

All of that ignores the proper exegesis of Romans 2:11-16. It wouldn't be worded in the original language as it is, if it did not mean more than he simply knows there's "Someone else."

 

[JamesL]

It's a view far to the right of the Free-Grace movement.

“How to Lead People to Christ: Part 1, the Content of Our Message.” [LINK]
by Zane C. Hodges



Rob

This hypothetical man merely knows that there is a mighty god.
The heathen believed this in ages past – even sacrificing their children before his image.

• Your man doesn't know that he needs saving.
• He doesn't know that he is a sinner.
• He doesn't know that the result of his sin is death.
• He doesn't know Jesus died in his place.
• He doesn't know his Savior rose from the grave.
• He doesn't' know that his Savior lives today.
• He doesn't know that his Savior offers forgiveness of sin and a place of righteousness before God.

God is righteous and judges man according to the light given to them.

Romans says that man rejected that light and chooses darkness.

If this hypothetical "believer" trusts God, then God will provide a way of salvation.

A preacher, a written gospel, a verbal communication, an angel of light… our God is an awesome God.

But this man needs to hear the gospel to be saved.

This is why each of us are called to share the gospel!

Without it they will perish.

Rob

You're right. The crossless gospel is one I argued vehemently against over at a leading Free Grace forum several years ago.

If this hypothetical man in Hodges' example believed that someone named Jesus was offering "everlasting life", he would probably understand it as immortality in this life rather than the life Jesus actually offered.

 

[percho]

My thoughts:

For since by man came death, 1 Cor 15:21 For as in Adam all die, 1 Cor 15:22 KJV

and as it is laid up to men once, to die, and after this -- judgment, Heb 9:40 YLT, and I added a comma following once.

by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Cor 15:21 even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

What do those verses have to say about, let's say Abraham?
What do those verses have to say about. let's say a man who lived 500 miles up the road from Abraham?
What do those verses have to say about, the man in the OP?

Does judgement come before or after death and or life?

 

[John of Japan]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

This scenario is almost an exact representation of a real life case presented by Evangelist Bill Rice (founder of the Bill Rice Ranch), recounted in his book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa. To make a long story short, Rice visited a pygmy village which had never heard the Gospel or even seen a white man. An old man stood up and said, "I thought it must be like that. As a young man I climbed a tree, looked up in the sky and thought, 'There must be a true God.'"

Here's the relevant truth: if anyone seeks the true God and His Son Jesus Christ, they will find Him. God will send someone or provide some way for him or her to hear the Gospel and be saved. They won't need to have some extra-Biblical way of salvation.

"Seek and ye shall find" (Matt. 7:7).

 

[pinoybaptist]

Well, the Bible didn't exist until AD 397 and the Synod of Carthage so....

There is only one way to be saved and that is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The person has to get to someplace to hear or someone has to go and tell. If God can transport Steven to tell someone the story He can do the same for someone on an island if He so desires, but His one way to salvation will not be compromised. If you hear and accept you are saved. If you do not hear to accept you end up in hell, no exceptions. And no it is not open to discussion as God has given one way and closed the door.

like "preach.." just said, Judith.
so, if "preach.." is correct, PLUS, the fact that there was no gospel of salvation to preach until AFTER the ascension, well, then, nobody started to get saved until then, and if hearing the preached word from a gospel preacher PLUS believing it PLUS repenting PLUS everything else demanded by today's popular thinking is what finally seals the work that Christ did for the sinner at the cross, then, there really was nobody saved before then, right ?
I hope you and the rest here don't go the route of "well, the Lord will provide for them", because then, that makes what you all require, "hearing, believing", somewhat shaky.

 

[pinoybaptist]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

[edited]
he's going to hell, and so is everybody else who never hears the gospel and believes and repents and converts, from the beginning of mankind to the end of time.
there will be very few souls in heaven, and the Bible was wrong for saying that there will be somebody from EVERY tribe, EVERY nation, EVERY tongue.
and every baby who is incapable of hearing the gospel will be in hell, and every one born with some sort of mental and comprehension challenges will be in hell, and everyone who once knew they were saved but forgot they were saved and forgot what the gospel was will be in hell.
yes, God is merciful.
yes, Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace is selective and demands only the few and the elite are saved.

now, since you have gone out of the Scriptures in this, why don't you find the book Eternity in their Hearts and try and read it and find for yourself instances similar to your scenario recounted for missionaries about tribes and peoples they encountered who had the legends of a God who was to send them somebody from a far land and teach them about Him ?
just type it in the Amazon search.
Or I can buy you a copy.