Arminianism another gospel?

[evangelist6589]

Yesterday at the breakfast with the local Calvinist church I was speaking with a brother whom has been a member of the church for years, been a missionary and we chatted for a while. It was quite a encouraging chat, and he knew his stuff and gave a strong recommendation that I get Faith Works of which I bought used. He also was saying that Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance so in effort deny Eph 2:8-10 which says "By Grace are Ye saved."

However I do not necessarily agree that they have another gospel, I told this brother they are just confused and have an elementary understanding on things. I am reading a book by an Arminian IFB pastor (this one someone mailed to me for FREE and no shipping costs) and the author denies sovereignty in salvation, however he does not get the gospel wrong, and makes a strong case for SIN, and Christ's death, and resurrection. But the fallout is his view that man can respond to the gospel if persuaded.

All this is a little confusing, but I can't argue that Arminian have another gospel. Interesting this brother had a respect for Charles Stanley whom does not dodge SIN, HELL, NOR JUDGMENT, so perhaps it may depend on the Arminian as like Calvinist they are not all the same. For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV). Osteen also may claim to be Arminian but we all know he is not.

 

[InTheLight]

Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance

Arminians don't deny God drawing the sinner, they do deny that the calling is irresistible. The gospel is "the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV).

Ladies and gentleman, I'm shocked, shocked that a Calvinist would question another's salvation.

Putting you in the killfile is looking like a smart move...

 

[JonC]

Ladies and gentleman, I'm shocked, shocked that a Calvinist would question another's salvation.

Seriously?

 

[Winman]

Yesterday at the breakfast with the local Calvinist church I was speaking with a brother whom has been a member of the church for years, been a missionary and we chatted for a while. It was quite a encouraging chat, and he knew his stuff and gave a strong recommendation that I get Faith Works of which I bought used. He also was saying that Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance so in effort deny Eph 2:8-10 which says "By Grace are Ye saved."

However I do not necessarily agree that they have another gospel, I told this brother they are just confused and have an elementary understanding on things. I am reading a book by an Arminian IFB pastor (this one someone mailed to me for FREE and no shipping costs) and the author denies sovereignty in salvation, however he does not get the gospel wrong, and makes a strong case for SIN, and Christ's death, and resurrection. But the fallout is his view that man can respond to the gospel if persuaded.

All this is a little confusing, but I can't argue that Arminian have another gospel. Interesting this brother had a respect for Charles Stanley whom does not dodge SIN, HELL, NOR JUDGMENT, so perhaps it may depend on the Arminian as like Calvinist they are not all the same. For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV). Osteen also may claim to be Arminian but we all know he is not.

Arminians and non-Cals do not preach the same gospel as Calvinism, because we believe in Unlimited Atonement, that Jesus died for 100% of men.

However, Arminians and non-Cals do not preach the same gospel either, as Arminians believe you must persevere to the end to be saved.

Non-Cals believe a person is preserved and does not have to persevere or endure to be saved.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yesterday at the breakfast with the local Calvinist church I was speaking with a brother whom has been a member of the church for years, been a missionary and we chatted for a while. It was quite a encouraging chat, and he knew his stuff and gave a strong recommendation that I get Faith Works of which I bought used. He also was saying that Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance so in effort deny Eph 2:8-10 which says "By Grace are Ye saved."

However I do not necessarily agree that they have another gospel, I told this brother they are just confused and have an elementary understanding on things. I am reading a book by an Arminian IFB pastor (this one someone mailed to me for FREE and no shipping costs) and the author denies sovereignty in salvation, however he does not get the gospel wrong, and makes a strong case for SIN, and Christ's death, and resurrection. But the fallout is his view that man can respond to the gospel if persuaded.

All this is a little confusing, but I can't argue that Arminian have another gospel. Interesting this brother had a respect for Charles Stanley whom does not dodge SIN, HELL, NOR JUDGMENT, so perhaps it may depend on the Arminian as like Calvinist they are not all the same. For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV). Osteen also may claim to be Arminian but we all know he is not.

The charge "another gospel" is not found in the context of election, limited atonement, total depravity, irresistable grace, freewllism, universal atonement, or etc., which are the issues that diveded Calvinists and Arminians but in the context of "JUSTIFICATION" and the issue of "works" versus "grace." It is the doctrine of justification by works that is charged as "another gospel." Baptist Arminians deny justification by works which has its fruit in the doctrine of apostasy by true children of God.

 

[convicted1]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

Then He also lied when He said that He lost none His Father gave Him.....but some say He can lie, but chose not to...so their theology is utterly consistent.....wrong....

 

[Rippon]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

Then He also lied when He said that He lost none His Father gave Him.....but some say He can lie, but chose not to...so their theology is utterly consistent.....wrong....

Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father first draws that person.

Jesus will lose none of all those the Father has given Him. Jesus will lose none of those the Father first drew to Himself. Jesus will lose none of those who come to Him as a result of the Father's drawing. Jesus shall lose not one of those individuals but raise each and every one of them up at the last day. Every single person who has heard the Father and learned from Him will indeed come to Jesus.

No exceptions --no ifs,and or buts. No gotcha' clauses. Oh if only professing Christians would submit to this clear teaching from the Word of God. But, as I have come to expect from winman,van & Co. plenty of dancing will be on display.

 

[evangelist6589]

Arminians and non-Cals do not preach the same gospel as Calvinism, because we believe in Unlimited Atonement, that Jesus died for 100% of men.

However, Arminians and non-Cals do not preach the same gospel either, as Arminians believe you must persevere to the end to be saved.

Non-Cals believe a person is preserved and does not have to persevere or endure to be saved.

Some non-Cal's hold onto that doctrine. Aware of that?

 

[evangelist6589]

The charge "another gospel" is not found in the context of election, limited atonement, total depravity, irresistable grace, freewllism, universal atonement, or etc., which are the issues that diveded Calvinists and Arminians but in the context of "JUSTIFICATION" and the issue of "works" versus "grace." It is the doctrine of justification by works that is charged as "another gospel." Baptist Arminians deny justification by works which has its fruit in the doctrine of apostasy by true children of God.

Yes correct. Catholics have the wrong view of Justification and belief its by works and so they have another gospel. However Baptists and other Arminians do not.

 

[evangelist6589]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

Then He also lied when He said that He lost none His Father gave Him.....but some say He can lie, but chose not to...so their theology is utterly consistent.....wrong....

Indeed. However I can't say that makes them heretics.

 

[Winman]

Some non-Cal's hold onto that doctrine. Aware of that?

What doctrine?

 

[convicted1]

Indeed. However I can't say that makes them heretics.

Oh, I agree.

 

[JamesL]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

But what Reformers are not able to see is that all men will die physically in Adam, and all men will be raised because of Christ. See John 5:28-29, Romans 5:12-21, 1Corinthians 15:21-22

If Christ did not die for unbelievers, then no unbeliever will be resurrected. And that goes against what Jesus said, and what He died for. He died for the ungodly, not the godly (Romans 5:6)

Every man's body will be sown "sin-wrecked" and be raised incorruptible - even unbelievers. That is how their bodies will endure the flames of torment

So the doctrine of limited atonement necessarily brings with it a doctrine of limited resurrection, which is blatant heresy.

Or we might as well embrace annihilationist thinking, because if the unbeliever is not raised in an imperishable body, then he will be annihilated by God's wrath.

But the milk of Calvinist philosophy is blind to the meat of that fact

 

[evangelist6589]

What doctrine?

Perseverance of the saints

 

[JamesL]

If Jesus died for 100% of all men, then Christ is the biggest failure this world will ever know...because he utterly failed to procure salvation for those who He said He died for. A miserable failure 'ee is, I say....

I'm curious...exactly what scripture are you drawing your conclusion from?

As far as I know, there isn't one scripture which says Jesus is a failure because some of those He died for are not heaven bound.

It is a philosophical argument that goes outside the bounds of scripture, to contrive something God never stated

Very true, He said that He lost none that the Father gave Him...EXCEPT the son of perdition. So that one instance should already make Christ a failure in Calvinist philosophy.

But I'm sure they've fabricated some sort of "out" for that one, considering that they came out of the Mother of all fabrications, Rome

 

[Iconoclast]

But what Reformers are not able to see is that all men will die physically in Adam, and all men will be raised because of Christ. See John 5:28-29, Romans 5:12-21, 1Corinthians 15:21-22

If Christ did not die for unbelievers, then no unbeliever will be resurrected. And that goes against what Jesus said, and what He died for. He died for the ungodly, not the godly (Romans 5:6)

Every man's body will be sown "sin-wrecked" and be raised incorruptible - even unbelievers. That is how their bodies will endure the flames of torment

So the doctrine of limited atonement necessarily brings with it a doctrine of limited resurrection, which is blatant heresy.

Or we might as well embrace annihilationist thinking, because if the unbeliever is not raised in an imperishable body, then he will be annihilated by God's wrath.

But the milk of Calvinist philosophy is blind to the meat of that fact

James,
Nothing in this post makes sense. What are you trying to say here?

You pulled romans 5;6 out of context....

Who is Paul speaking of...see the highlighted portions.....

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

James...do you see how Paul does not use it as you suggest?

 

[Winman]

I'm curious...exactly what scripture are you drawing your conclusion from?

As far as I know, there isn't one scripture which says Jesus is a failure because some of those He died for are not heaven bound.

It is a philosophical argument that goes outside the bounds of scripture, to contrive something God never stated

Very true, He said that He lost none that the Father gave Him...EXCEPT the son of perdition. So that one instance should already make Christ a failure in Calvinist philosophy.

But I'm sure they've fabricated some sort of "out" for that one, considering that they came out of the Mother of all fabrications, Rome

It's just another classic bogus Calvinist cliche argument, they all use it.

It would be like a Coast Guard cutter going to a small island with 100 people, and the Captain warning them that a major hurricane will hit in the next 24 hours, and offering to take everyone off the island safely.

50 people believe the Captain of the cutter and get on, the other half are stubborn and rebellious and refuse to get on. Finally the Captain realizes he must get underway to avoid the storm and leaves the stubborn folks behind. The storm overflows the island and drowns them all.

Was the Captain a failure? NO, he is a hero. It is not his fault that 50 people were stubborn and wouldn't listen. His ship was big enough to carry all 100 people to safety, but they passed it up.

 

[JamesL]

James,
Nothing in this post makes sense. What are you trying to say here?

You pulled romans 5;6 out of context....

Nothing makes sense? Scripture clearly states that every man will be raised - some to life, and some to punishment (John 5:28-29)

And Romans 5:6 is not out of context, because Paul was transitioning from the justification of the inner man - Having BEEN justified by faith, we HAVE peace with God. Keep reading to verses 9-11

Having BEEN justified by His blood, we SHALL BE saved from wrath (physical death) through Him...
much more, BEING reconciled (by His death), we SHALL BE "saved" (from physical death) by His LIFE (resurrection)
we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we HAVE NOW received the atonement

He is transitioning from the benefits of the atonement (death) that we have NOW, to the benefits we SHALL have in the resurrection.


Don't get tripped up over the word "saved", because it has a very broad meaning in scripture. It means much, much more than "saved from hell, going to heaven"



But, Paul has looked only at the believer so far through verse 11. In verse 12, he continues to ALL MEN who have died (physically) in Adam. And these same ALL MEN will be raised because of Christ.

Keep reading to verses 18-21, and notice that it has a universal ring to it. Many commentators have misunderstood this "made righteous" on account of Christ, believing that it means made righteous in the inner man. But Paul has already concluded his treatment of the inner man, and has moved on to the resurrection of the outer man. This body we have now will be sown sinful, as it came that way from Adam

But because of Christ's death and resurrection, the physical body of ALL MEN will be cleansed of sin. That is how the body of an unbeliever will endure the eternal punishment from God.

Every person ever born will be raised in a sinless body because Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection (1Cor 15:23). Then those who are His at His coming. But the rest of the dead will not be raised until after the 1,000 years is over (Revelation 20:5)

Christ is the firstborn of ALL creation (Colossians 1:15)

And for anyone to be raised, Christ had to die to atone for their corruptible body - He died for the ungodly, which is ALL of us

 

[convicted1]

I'm curious...exactly what scripture are you drawing your conclusion from?

As far as I know, there isn't one scripture which says Jesus is a failure because some of those He died for are not heaven bound.

It is a philosophical argument that goes outside the bounds of scripture, to contrive something God never stated

Very true, He said that He lost none that the Father gave Him...EXCEPT the son of perdition. So that one instance should already make Christ a failure in Calvinist philosophy.

But I'm sure they've fabricated some sort of "out" for that one, considering that they came out of the Mother of all fabrications, Rome

Jesus said all that the Father gave Me comes to Me. If all the world, 100% of ALL mankind, including those who will never hear His precious name, and they die(d) lost, then He failed.

He also said He lost none of them, either. Again, if He atoned for their sins, even those who never heard His precious name, and they die(d) lost, then not only did He fail, but lied, too. Don't give me a redeemer that weak in ability to save.

Give me Jesus Christ, who WILL save His people from their sins. Not tried and failed to save them who die(d) lost.....


And that is NOT philosphy, but God's word, and He's bound by His word....

 

[Yeshua1]

Yesterday at the breakfast with the local Calvinist church I was speaking with a brother whom has been a member of the church for years, been a missionary and we chatted for a while. It was quite a encouraging chat, and he knew his stuff and gave a strong recommendation that I get Faith Works of which I bought used. He also was saying that Arminian may get the gospel wrong. Well I believe that they have a man centered gospel, especially since they deny effectual calling (Irresistible Grace) and also believe that man can respond to the gospel without God granting faith and repentance so in effort deny Eph 2:8-10 which says "By Grace are Ye saved."

However I do not necessarily agree that they have another gospel, I told this brother they are just confused and have an elementary understanding on things. I am reading a book by an Arminian IFB pastor (this one someone mailed to me for FREE and no shipping costs) and the author denies sovereignty in salvation, however he does not get the gospel wrong, and makes a strong case for SIN, and Christ's death, and resurrection. But the fallout is his view that man can respond to the gospel if persuaded.

All this is a little confusing, but I can't argue that Arminian have another gospel. Interesting this brother had a respect for Charles Stanley whom does not dodge SIN, HELL, NOR JUDGMENT, so perhaps it may depend on the Arminian as like Calvinist they are not all the same. For example that joker whom wrote that "heaven is for real book" I believe to be a false convert whom has another gospel. He may profess to be Arminian but he is not, and nothing more than a false convert (in my POV). Osteen also may claim to be Arminian but we all know he is not.

Would say that arminians teach and preach the Gospel of the Cross, its jut that they have an incompleted view of all that actually is involved when God saves sinners!

DoG NOT the Gospel, but explains what actually happens best!