Those who are "in the flesh", are the unsaved, who JUST have their sinner natures...
After salvation, the Christian can become a slave to either their old selves, or to the Holy Spirit, but flesh in that contex is NOT same for a lost sinner!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Do Christians still have their old nature/flesh after salvation?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Those who are "in the flesh", are the unsaved, who JUST have their sinner natures...
After salvation, the Christian can become a slave to either their old selves, or to the Holy Spirit, but flesh in that contex is NOT same for a lost sinner!
no Romans 6:6 says the old man was crucified that's a completed action
it actually was crucified so you can't become a slave to the old man.
it actually was crucified so you can't become a slave to the old man.
Were Peter and the rest of the apostles unsaved when Christ told them:
Deny yourselves, take up your cross daily and follow me.
--According to you they were not saved.
Was Paul unsaved because according to 1Cor.15:31, he testified "I die daily. Every day he "crucified the flesh."
What did he mean:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
DHK
Hello DHK,
I have never said such a thing. What I would say about this passage and others like it would be That Jesus was instructing them on counting the cost...in other words....He was instructing them and us by way of the written word.....that we as believers must Identify and fully Confess Jesus as Lord.
They were to identify with Him and His word....then live and behave as children of light.
God's will is now the focus for a believer.
DHK...forget our ongoing dispute for one second- when you are instructing a new believer do you urge them to move forward in their Christian walk...or just coast for Jesus? Do you suggest any sense of urgency about using the means of grace...prayer, bible study, healthy church life and fellowship?
Serving others unto edification....this is what the concern is on all these issues.
getting people grounded and settled in the faith that they can help others.
If you disagree with this.....I do not know what to say to you
He was conscious of the daily need to mortify sin....notice if was the flesh, the motions of sin in his members...here he says the same thing I am hammering away at you with.....take your time...read this slowly 5 or 6 times in a row;
5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --
6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,
7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;
8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,
10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;
the old man..once again is dead...the new man...IS ACTIVE,made alive by God.
he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......
the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...
The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifys the motions of sin.
he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23 and I behold another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin
that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!
who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,
and with the flesh, the law of sin
Let's see how Paul sums this up.....
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus,
who walk not according to the flesh,
but according to the Spirit;
2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
The result;
4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us,
who do not walk according to the flesh,
but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind;
and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death,
and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;
I can go on .... but you can read how once again...he speaks of only two men and our duty to mortify sin
12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die;
and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;
14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
Hello DHK,
I have never said such a thing. What I would say about this passage and others like it would be That Jesus was instructing them on counting the cost...in other words....He was instructing them and us by way of the written word.....that we as believers must Identify and fully Confess Jesus as Lord.
They were to identify with Him and His word....then live and behave as children of light.
God's will is now the focus for a believer.
DHK...forget our ongoing dispute for one second- when you are instructing a new believer do you urge them to move forward in their Christian walk...or just coast for Jesus? Do you suggest any sense of urgency about using the means of grace...prayer, bible study, healthy church life and fellowship?
Serving others unto edification....this is what the concern is on all these issues.
getting people grounded and settled in the faith that they can help others.
If you disagree with this.....I do not know what to say to you
He was conscious of the daily need to mortify sin....notice if was the flesh, the motions of sin in his members...here he says the same thing I am hammering away at you with.....take your time...read this slowly 5 or 6 times in a row;
5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --
6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,
7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;
8 but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices,
10 and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;
the old man..once again is dead...the new man...IS ACTIVE,made alive by God.
he is a new man...in the old body of flesh.......
the old man...in that same body of flesh, when he was unsaved...obeyed the motions of sin...
The new man...in that same body of flesh...now mortifys the motions of sin.
he does not get freed from that body of sin and remaining corruption until he leaves that body to be in the presence of the LORD. That is the summary of Romans 7:24-25
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23 and I behold another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin
that [is] in my members.
24 A wretched man I [am]!
who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord;
so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God,
and with the flesh, the law of sin
Let's see how Paul sums this up.....
8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus,
who walk not according to the flesh,
but according to the Spirit;
2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
The result;
4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us,
who do not walk according to the flesh,
but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind;
and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death,
and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;
I can go on .... but you can read how once again...he speaks of only two men and our duty to mortify sin
12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die;
and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;
14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
"To take up one's cross" is not to identify oneself with Christ. That is not what Jesus said. A cross (in that era) was a means of execution. That is how Christ died, and the two thieves. All who were executed by capitol punishment according to Roman law were crucified. That was the law. It was a means of death, execution.
To "take up one's cross" (daily) means to put yourself to death every day. Every day you must put that old nature that you have to death. The old nature is still there. It battles against the new. It is not eradicated. Jesus said put it to death, not once--but every day. Say no to the flesh, and yes to Christ.
It always has been, and no one has said otherwise.
I would never tell anyone that they have a "means of grace." What is that? A Catholic sacrament?
The Bible speaks of sanctification. God initially sets us apart. From there we grow: by prayer, the study of the Word, coming regularly to church, etc.
The title of the thread is:Do Christians still have their old nature/flesh after salvation?Serving others unto edification....this is what the concern is on all these issues.
getting people grounded and settled in the faith that they can help others.
If you disagree with this.....I do not know what to say to you
It is not about sanctification or the growth of a new believer. It is evident that a Christian still has the old nature; he is still is "of the flesh"; he still must battle "a carnal nature." If we didn't have a carnal nature, live a life in the flesh, with our old nature, then we would never sin. But 1John 1:8,10 tells us that is a heretical position to take.
Obviously you have an old nature if you have to keep on "mortifying" it.
And yet every day you must mortify the deeds of the flesh;
reckon yourself to be dead indeed unto sin;
deny yourself daily;
take up your cross daily;
"die daily."
The old man is not dead. He only is reckoned to be dead. We are to consider him dead. Act as if he is dead. He is symbolically dead.
If he is dead why do posts have to be edited? Ungodly, and even foul language snipped out, from the posts of believers? Does that come from the nature of the Holy Spirit or from the old nature that also dwells within you? Do you attribute sin to God?
Is he therefore sinless? Take another look at 1John 1:8,10.
Was Paul unsaved when he wrote Romans 7:24,25?
Why don't you answer that question for me?
If it does it now, it is evident that the body of flesh, the old nature is not dead.
Now you still haven't answered the question. Was Paul speaking as an unsaved man here. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord...with the flesh I serve the law of sin. He could make the choice whether to serve the law of God or the law of sin. Both natures struggled within him.
These phrases are not conditional, but qualitative. They describe what kind of person "to whom there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus." Those who are not condemned walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. That is the type of people they are.
The phrases are not conditional. If they were, then you would have a works-based salvation.
Chapter eight goes not and discusses a different topic.
I am not about to address that right now.
DHK.
Sorry...you are mistaken-until you understand this...your error will remain;
Quote:
It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [aswilling bondslaves to] sin.”
The “old man” was the unregenerate self, who was crucified with Christ, i.e., died with Christ in his death. The reason is so the body with its appetites might no longer dominate the personality, and that the believer will now no longer live as he once did—a willing bondslave to sin
The text says it has been put to death.....it is not symbolically put to death....it was put to death a past completed death..
from preceptaustin...
hereGreek: touto ginoskontes, (PAPMPN) hoti o palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe, (3SAPI) hina katargeqe (3SAPS) to soma tes hamartias tou meketi douleuein (PAN) hemas te hamartia
Amplified: We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
GWT: We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin. (GWT)
NET: “We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” (NET Bible)
NLT: Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: Let us never forget that our old selves died with him on the cross that the tyranny of sin over us might be broken (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: knowing this experientially, that our old [unregenerate] self was crucified once for all with Him in order that the physical body [heretofore] dominated by the sinful nature might be rendered inoperative [in that respect], with the result that no longer are we rendering a slave’s habitual obedience to the sinful nature (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: this knowing, that our old man was crucified [with him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
I really hope you do not teach many people if this is what you offer...my opponents on here could all answer this...
More error...he is dead, and we are in union with Christ...that is what we are to "reckon"..in other words..in light of the fact that the old man is dead..and we are alive In Christ reckon yourselves alive unto righteousness.
He is dead;
Sorry...you are mistaken-until you understand this...your error will remain;
Quote:
It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [aswilling bondslaves to] sin.”
The “old man” was the unregenerate self, who was crucified with Christ, i.e., died with Christ in his death. The reason is so the body with its appetites might no longer dominate the personality, and that the believer will now no longer live as he once did—a willing bondslave to sin
The text says it has been put to death.....it is not symbolically put to death....it was put to death a past completed death..
from preceptaustin...
hereGreek: touto ginoskontes, (PAPMPN) hoti o palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe, (3SAPI) hina katargeqe (3SAPS) to soma tes hamartias tou meketi douleuein (PAN) hemas te hamartia
Amplified: We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
GWT: We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin. (GWT)
NET: “We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” (NET Bible)
NLT: Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: Let us never forget that our old selves died with him on the cross that the tyranny of sin over us might be broken (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: knowing this experientially, that our old [unregenerate] self was crucified once for all with Him in order that the physical body [heretofore] dominated by the sinful nature might be rendered inoperative [in that respect], with the result that no longer are we rendering a slave’s habitual obedience to the sinful nature (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: this knowing, that our old man was crucified [with him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
.
I really hope you do not teach many people if this is what you offer...my opponents on here could all answer this...
. That is not what col 3 said is it? it did not say mortify the old man.
.
More error...he is dead, and we are in union with Christ...that is what we are to "reckon"..in other words..in light of the fact that the old man is dead..and we are alive In Christ reckon yourselves alive unto righteousness.
He is dead;
Last edited by a moderator:
With this conclusion, and taking into consideration the rest of your post, I can only conclude two things:
1. You deny the depravity of man.
2. You believe in sinless perfection. (You have finally reached it have you?)
--No more old nature; no more sin. That is your belief, right?
Maybe you have convinced me of your position DHK.
Based on your posting.......you are yet....carnal.
Based on your posting.......you are yet....carnal.
I've been following this discussion with interest as this is not something that I have settled on.
However, these two posts are simply out of line. Come on guys, at least act civil, even if you think the other is an abject moron.
What is to be glorified in us by Jesus at His second coming?
is it now that we have finally been fully freed from any trace of the sin nature, the flesh that we all still have now?
the Apostle John sinned by worshipping e Angel in revelation, was that his flesh/sin nature, or exactly what?
carnal means in the Bible whn a Christian disobeys the Lord and acts out as he would have before getting saved, have you ever did that?
Icon,
This is a position that Finney espoused. He taught that the old nature is dead.
That every Christian, having only a new nature is now capable of reaching of sinless perfection.
He even started a colony of believers in which he thought every person there could ultimately be a perfect Christian and there would exist no sin. We know that didn't work. Finney was a heretic who denied the depravity of man.
We all believe in the depravity of man. It is one of the basic tenets of Calvinism. You need to look this up in one of your Confessions or Catechisms and study it from there. The old nature is never dead. Read further in Romans 8.
We wait for the redemption of our bodies. The entire earth is under a curse. We live in a sin-cursed world. We also are prone to sin because we have inherited the Adamic nature which is never fully eradicated, and won't be until the resurrection. That is basic depravity of man 101 teaching. How can you deny this.
You misunderstand Romans 6:6, and it is affecting much of your basic theology which you have believed from the beginning. How can this be?
DHK
I will entitle this...how I build a strawman...by DHK
I will entitle this...how I build a strawman...by DHK
Laugh as you will Icon. There was no strawman.
Finney was a heretic.
The point is that you have taken Romans 6:6 out of its context, and interpreted it improperly. Then you have built a theology around that verse and have concluded with doctrines expressed in recent posts that you have never espoused on this board before.
How do you account for that?
convicted1
Guest
I have tried to stay out of this discussion, because honestly, both sides make very compelling posts. But here's where I want to jump into the fray. I keep seeing Romans 6:6 being bandied about, so let's delve deeper and involve the surrounding verses....
"What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound? let it not be! we who died to the sin -- how shall we still live in it? are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized? we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again; this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin. And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 6:1-11) YLT
It appears to me that Apostle Paul was telling the church at Rome that we no longer walk after the flesh, but the Spirit(Romans 8:1). We are still in the flesh, and will be so to our soul is called back to Him. We will have to crucify our flesh(Galatians 5:24), to mortify the deeds of our body(Romans 8:13), but we no longer serve sin, but Him. We are not carnal, but do have times when we sin and act carnally. Now, before you say I am inconsistent with what I just posted, let's look a merriam-webster's definition of "carnal"....
We fight with the flesh and have to have the Spirit bring it back under subjection. That does not mean we are carnal. Sinners live carnally, live after, and lust after, and with, the flesh. We, as His chosen, redeemed people, now serve Him. We still have to be chastised when we sin, but when we do sin, that is not an indicator of being a "carnal christian".
"What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound? let it not be! we who died to the sin -- how shall we still live in it? are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized? we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again; this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin. And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God; so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 6:1-11) YLT
It appears to me that Apostle Paul was telling the church at Rome that we no longer walk after the flesh, but the Spirit(Romans 8:1). We are still in the flesh, and will be so to our soul is called back to Him. We will have to crucify our flesh(Galatians 5:24), to mortify the deeds of our body(Romans 8:13), but we no longer serve sin, but Him. We are not carnal, but do have times when we sin and act carnally. Now, before you say I am inconsistent with what I just posted, let's look a merriam-webster's definition of "carnal"....
We fight with the flesh and have to have the Spirit bring it back under subjection. That does not mean we are carnal. Sinners live carnally, live after, and lust after, and with, the flesh. We, as His chosen, redeemed people, now serve Him. We still have to be chastised when we sin, but when we do sin, that is not an indicator of being a "carnal christian".
If one sins, he is a sinner whether or not he likes that offensive term.
If he commits adultery he is an adulterer.
If he commits murder he is a murderer.
If he lies he is a liar.
We are known by our actions.
As you stated: "Sinners live carnally." Those are your exact words.
Ergo, They are carnal Christians. You can't have it both ways.
Having said that one must define "carnal" according to its context. The context in Romans 8 is different than the context in 1Cor.3. The entire book is different. In 1Corinthians Paul is addressing Carnal Christians with carnal problems, chapter after chapter after chapter.
The theme of the entire book of Romans is a treatise on soteriology. It has no comparison to the epistle to the Corinthians. The entire context is different. The word "carnal" is being used in a completely different way.
convicted1
Guest
I am not a sinner anymore. Sure I sin. I don't deny that fact, and I never will. Yet, I am not a sinner saved by grace. I am a christian who still has to deal with the flesh I am in.
This "sinner saved by grace" bunk has given us a black eye. Sinners live sinful lives, enjoy sinful lives, and wallow in their sinful lives.
Christians sin, and when they do, will repent of it, and move on....
ETA: Sinners live after the flesh, christians, the Spirit....
Tom Butler
New Member
Would someone exegete Romans 7, beginning with verse 14? Paul, the greatest Christian of the New Testament laments the war going on in his members. I take this to refer to the battle between his old nature and his new nature. Am I right?
I do believe you are correct, sir!
All one has to do is go to Romans 8:1-8, and in the body of that tesxt is Paul explaining that if we, the believer walk in the spirit, we will have HIs peace and love and make God glad! But, at the same time, if we do not walk in the spirit of obediance, we can expect to grieve the Spirit , and be without peace and HIs love, and possibly face death, physical, not spiritual! We know God had a history of killing people to save their souls!
Here is the text [to save you time from looking it up - NIV] - "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."
I do not see this being sent to believers and unbelievers, but rather believers in Rome who have succumbed to the ways of the world after coming to Jesus!
I hope this helps Tom? :thumbsup:
All one has to do is go to Romans 8:1-8, and in the body of that tesxt is Paul explaining that if we, the believer walk in the spirit, we will have HIs peace and love and make God glad! But, at the same time, if we do not walk in the spirit of obediance, we can expect to grieve the Spirit , and be without peace and HIs love, and possibly face death, physical, not spiritual! We know God had a history of killing people to save their souls!
Here is the text [to save you time from looking it up - NIV] - "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."
I do not see this being sent to believers and unbelievers, but rather believers in Rome who have succumbed to the ways of the world after coming to Jesus!
I hope this helps Tom? :thumbsup: