Our Role In Sanctification: An Imperative

[Iconoclast]

thisnumbersdisconnected

My apologies to both you and the author. I always credit outside sources, but I failed to do so this time.

No problem dcon.....I think we have all done this. Some might have been curious because several have done this before...on purpose.One tried to pass himself of as Jonathan Edwards....but we saw through it.

It isn't the first time on BB, and while I always endeavor to meet the copyright requirements, perhaps it won't be the last, but if it is not, I'll correct that error as well.

:thumbs:

Thanks for holding me accountable on that. I sometimes get engrossed in the argument and neglect the necessities.

That is understandable:wavey:

That said, the facts stated therein should be dealt with directly rather than attempting to make accusations that are unfounded

.

I asked because I wanted to interact with the link.

Dcon......this is a teachable moment...let me ask you a question and make a point.....

I notice that you quoted from a source...written by....some man..[I do not know who.
When I post a link you deride me for reading 400 yr old dead men????
Perhaps you can see where I am going with this...yes?

I do not mind any posted link as I use them all the time. If the person wrote it 4 days ago, 40 yrs ago, or 400 yrs ago...we are looking at a written idea as even when I view what you write here:thumbs:

So perhaps you might drop the excuse or complaint about saints that have gone from the earth, but left teaching in written form.That somehow they cannot teach us something today as God's word was read and taught by them also:thumbs:

 

[Reformed]

[Rom 15:16 KJV] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Of course you do know Romans 15:16 has nothing at all to do with progressive sanctification, i.e. behavior or conduct (which is what this thread is about). It refers to the gospel that is being preached to the Gentiles will be blessed. The Greek word for "sanctified" in this verse is ἁγιος (hagios). It can mean sanctified, holy, or blessed depending on its rendering.

But since your unstated point is that it is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies even our conduct and behavior; you're stating a point that is not in dispute. No Christian can take credit for their salvation, never mind their sanctification. But it would be unbiblical to suggest that individuals do not bear any responsibility or accountability for their obedience. Ex. as a Calvinist I know that only the elect will exercise saving faith, which is given as a gift of God (Eph. 2:8, 9). So I logically conclude that salvation is all of God. But does that negate man's responsibility to believe? No. Acts 17:30 says that God is calling on all men, everywhere, to believe. The same with progressive sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, but the individual is responsible to obey.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course you do know Romans 15:16 has nothing at all to do with progressive sanctification, i.e. behavior or conduct (which is what this thread is about). It refers to the gospel that is being preached to the Gentiles will be blessed. The Greek word for "sanctified" in this verse is ἁγιος (hagios). It can mean sanctified, holy, or blessed depending on its rendering.

But since your unstated point is that it is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies even our conduct and behavior; you're stating a point that is not in dispute. No Christian can take credit for their salvation, never mind their sanctification. But it would be unbiblical to suggest that individuals do not bear any responsibility or accountability for their obedience. Ex. as a Calvinist I know that only the elect will exercise saving faith, which is given as a gift of God (Eph. 2:8, 9). So I logically conclude that salvation is all of God. But does that negate man's responsibility to believe? No. Acts 17:30 says that God is calling on all men, everywhere, to believe. The same with progressive sanctification. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, but the individual is responsible to obey.

The crux of this though is that our obedience is by relying upon fully trhe HolySpirit, to be led and empowered by Him to combat sins and to get more like jesus!

Too many take to mortify oneself as to get into the right frame of mind, to think right, act right, yet apart from relying upon the Spirit. we can do NOTHING in and of ourselves!

 

[kyredneck]

LS has crossed over to other denominations:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94168

 

[Reformed]

The crux of this though is that our obedience is by relying upon fully trhe HolySpirit, to be led and empowered by Him to combat sins and to get more like jesus!

Too many take to mortify oneself as to get into the right frame of mind, to think right, act right, yet apart from relying upon the Spirit. we can do NOTHING in and of ourselves!

But I didn't write about the "too many", and I never once suggested our obedience is not accomplished separate from trusting in the Holy Spirit.

Too many Christians want to be like Christ without being told they need to be l like Christ. Functional Antinomianism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

The crux of this though is that our obedience is by relying upon fully trhe HolySpirit,

What does this mean?

Relying on the Holy Spirit to do what exactly?

Explain how this happens from scripture so we know what you mean...it is vague.

to be led and empowered by Him to combat sins and to get more like jesus!

Okay.....how does he lead us?

How do we combat sins?

Too many take to mortify oneself

Where does the bible say...mortify oneself??? How do you do this?

I do not think it says this. Have you studied this topic at all?

Again...using the bible as your only source...explain this please.. using scripture alone.

as to get into the right frame of mind, to think right, act right,

Again...how do we get in the "right frame of mind"?

what verse are you speaking about?

 

[Aaron]

But it would be unbiblical to suggest that individuals do not bear any responsibility or accountability for their obedience.

Which is why they need a Savior. That guilt is what drives them to the foot of the Cross.

As far as the law and the Gospel are concerned, I think Martin Luther nailed it:

The person who can rightly divide Law and Gospel has reason to thank God. He is a true theologian. I must confess that in times of temptation I do not always know how to do it. To divide Law and Gospel means to place the Gospel in heaven, and to keep the Law on earth; to call the righteousness of the Gospel heavenly, and the righteousness of the Law earthly; to put as much difference between the righteousness of the Gospel and that of the Law, as there is difference between day and night. If it is a question of faith or conscience, ignore the Law entirely. If it is a question of works, then lift high the lantern of works and the righteousness of the Law. If your conscience is oppressed with a sense of sin, talk to your conscience. Say: “You are now groveling in the dirt. You are now a laboring ass. Go ahead, and carry your burden. 59But why don’t you mount up to heaven? There the Law cannot follow you!” Leave the ass burdened with laws behind in the valley. But your conscience, let it ascend with Isaac into the mountain.

In civil life obedience to the law is severely required. In civil life Gospel, conscience, grace, remission of sins, Christ Himself, do not count, but only Moses with the lawbooks. If we bear in mind this distinction, neither Gospel nor Law shall trespass upon each other. The moment Law and sin cross into heaven, i.e., your conscience, kick them out. On the other hand, when grace wanders unto the earth, i.e., into the body, tell grace: “You have no business to be around the dreg and dung of this bodily life. You belong in heaven.”
By his compromising attitude Peter confused the separation of Law and Gospel. Paul had to do something about it. He reproved Peter, not to embarrass him, but to conserve the difference between the Gospel which justifies in heaven, and the Law which justifies on earth.

The right separation between Law and Gospel is very important to know. Christian doctrine is impossible without it. Let all who love and fear God, diligently learn the difference, not only in theory but also in practice.
When your conscience gets into trouble, say to yourself: “There is a time to die and a time to live; a time to learn the Law, and a time to unlearn the Law; a time to hear the Gospel, and a time to ignore the Gospel. Let the Law now depart, and let the Gospel enter, for now is the right time to hear the Gospel, and not the Law.” However, when the conflict of conscience is over and external duties must be performed, close your ears to the Gospel, and open them wide to the Law.​

"Lordship Salvation" is a poor moniker for the ideas you're expositing. It confuses the law and grace. Jesus IS Lord, meaning He takes the reins of my heart. I don't give them. I can't give them. He takes them with violence if necessary, and that is a great comfort to one who knows his desperate, sinful condition.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1




What does this mean?

Relying on the Holy Spirit to do what exactly?

Explain how this happens from scripture so we know what you mean...it is vague.


Okay.....how does he lead us?

How do we combat sins?



Where does the bible say...mortify oneself??? How do you do this?

I do not think it says this. Have you studied this topic at all?

Again...using the bible as your only source...explain this please.. using scripture alone.



Again...how do we get in the "right frame of mind"?

what verse are you speaking about?

Chapter Romans, as basically, as a Christian now, the ONLY way i can live as I should for jesus is to realise that God NEVER intended me to fight against sinning by act of my willpower/mind, but by relying upon the holy spirit, to yeild and subment control over to Him...

Its really Holy Spirit Lordship....

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Let me make this plain, Icon:

I respect you greatly. You are obviously well read and have done what appear, from your posts, to be monumental studies on the subject. I just do not agree with your interpretation and likely never will.

I notice that you quoted from a source...written by....some man..[I do not know who.
When I post a link you deride me for reading 400 yr old dead men????
Perhaps you can see where I am going with this...yes?

I can, but I must take issue with your 400-year-old dead men who, I firmly believe, made bad interpretation of the same Scripture. Naturally, I'm sure, you will see that I believe my "man" -- Tom Stegall -- makes a correct interpretation. I see that, in both our cases, it is a simple matter of believing a man not because of what the man says, but because he agrees with what we've studied. For me, that entails a great deal of reading and note-taking over the 21 years I've been a Christian. I came to these conclusions before I knew who Tom Stegall or any other modern Christian author and theologian was.

I did so at the behest of my first pastor who evidently saw in me a thirst for knowledge he knew must be satisfied. Probably because within six months of salvation I was asking him questions about Calvinism, Arminianism, Reformed theology, etc. I was desirous of learning everything I could about what God said and did, and various factions of believers at that church were throwing all sorts of things at me -- additionally to those, I also was "courted" by KJV Onlyists, and by those who held to Primitive theology (there are no strong Primitive churches in the KC area), and several others.

He urged me to take no man's word for anything. His suggested investment in a Thayer and Smith dictionary, the Complete Word Study Hebrew Lexicon, and Spiros Zodhiates' "Complete Greek Word Study Dictionary/Lexicon" and the NASB Key Word Study Bible Zodhiates edited was a Godsend. Obviously my studies led me to commentaries and exhaustive studies of several different topics. I got to the point that I felt I needed directed study, and audited several courses at a local interdenominational Bible college that is closely aligned with MBTS here. I would have gone to Midwestern's Bible college, but it was an hour and half drive round trip and I didn't have time to do that and work and raise two kids by myself -- my ex having abandoned them for a drug-fuzzed boyfriend who eventually wound up in prison. But that's another story.

All that to say, I haven't reached my conclusions by reading other people's works. But I also don't have the education to put some of these deeper thoughts into words, and I often use other sources to help me organize my thoughts. Nonetheless, I believed the viewpoint I hold long before I found men of a theological basis who hold to the same views.

I've done a great deal of soul searching lately, Icon. I've found a lot of rough edges on me that I need God to sandpaper off, and I'm submitting myself to Him to do so. I've been harsh, and oftentimes cruel not just to you but to others who come to points of contention with me. I think these are probably leftovers from a 20-year military career in which I rose through the ranks preaching a "my-way-or-the-highway" kind of philosophy while also managing to listen to opposing views before rejecting them. :laugh:

Trying to change my mind is pointless. It won't happen without overwhelming evidence to discredit what I've studied and concluded. The attitude you sometimes push, of which I and others have accused you, that if we don't believe as you, we are dead wrong and maybe even lost, rankles. But then, I manage to come off the same way. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Perhaps you won't agree with me that you operate in that mode. If so, that's all right. Nevertheless, I admit to you and others here that I have operated thusly. I offer you my apologies, I ask you your forgiveness, and God's.

I just won't waver from my opinions. Fair enough? :thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

good post dcon I'll try to respond to this later on when I get to a keyboard I just have my phone with me right now making delivery

 

[Iconoclast]

Chapter Romans, as basically, as a Christian now, the ONLY way i can live as I should for jesus is to realise that God NEVER intended me to fight against sinning by act of my willpower/mind, but by relying upon the holy spirit, to yeild and subment control over to Him...

Its really Holy Spirit Lordship....

I asked about 11 questions hoping to get an answer to each 1 of them to better understand what you're trying to say when I look at your response f the first thing I read is chapter Romans???

are you texting in tongues????

I believe you're trying to speak on the topic but the reason I asked 11 different questions is I have no idea what you're really trying to say specifically

 

[Reformed]

Which is why they need a Savior. That guilt is what drives them to the foot of the Cross.

As far as the law and the Gospel are concerned, I think Martin Luther nailed it:

The person who can rightly divide Law and Gospel has reason to thank God. He is a true theologian. I must confess that in times of temptation I do not always know how to do it. To divide Law and Gospel means to place the Gospel in heaven, and to keep the Law on earth; to call the righteousness of the Gospel heavenly, and the righteousness of the Law earthly; to put as much difference between the righteousness of the Gospel and that of the Law, as there is difference between day and night. If it is a question of faith or conscience, ignore the Law entirely. If it is a question of works, then lift high the lantern of works and the righteousness of the Law. If your conscience is oppressed with a sense of sin, talk to your conscience. Say: “You are now groveling in the dirt. You are now a laboring ass. Go ahead, and carry your burden. 59But why don’t you mount up to heaven? There the Law cannot follow you!” Leave the ass burdened with laws behind in the valley. But your conscience, let it ascend with Isaac into the mountain.

In civil life obedience to the law is severely required. In civil life Gospel, conscience, grace, remission of sins, Christ Himself, do not count, but only Moses with the lawbooks. If we bear in mind this distinction, neither Gospel nor Law shall trespass upon each other. The moment Law and sin cross into heaven, i.e., your conscience, kick them out. On the other hand, when grace wanders unto the earth, i.e., into the body, tell grace: “You have no business to be around the dreg and dung of this bodily life. You belong in heaven.”
By his compromising attitude Peter confused the separation of Law and Gospel. Paul had to do something about it. He reproved Peter, not to embarrass him, but to conserve the difference between the Gospel which justifies in heaven, and the Law which justifies on earth.

The right separation between Law and Gospel is very important to know. Christian doctrine is impossible without it. Let all who love and fear God, diligently learn the difference, not only in theory but also in practice.
When your conscience gets into trouble, say to yourself: “There is a time to die and a time to live; a time to learn the Law, and a time to unlearn the Law; a time to hear the Gospel, and a time to ignore the Gospel. Let the Law now depart, and let the Gospel enter, for now is the right time to hear the Gospel, and not the Law.” However, when the conflict of conscience is over and external duties must be performed, close your ears to the Gospel, and open them wide to the Law.​

"Lordship Salvation" is a poor moniker for the ideas you're expositing. It confuses the law and grace. Jesus IS Lord, meaning He takes the reins of my heart. I don't give them. I can't give them. He takes them with violence if necessary, and that is a great comfort to one who knows his desperate, sinful condition.

Aaron, if you reference the OP I never mentioned Lordship Salvation. In fact I intentionally omitted it. It was not an attempt on my part to distance myself from its tenets, but rather to focus on progressive sanctification as a doctrine.

I think I have a good working knowledge of law and gospel. While I appreciate you Luther quote, it is not new to me. What you and I are having a difficult time reconciling is whether the individual Christian participates in his sanctification.

There are two aspects of sanctification. The first one is that we are set apart by God at the point of justification and considered holy. This is not to be confused with justification itself. Justification is a judicial term, wherein we are declared righteous by God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

The other aspect of sanctification is our development. Our behavior and conduct should be brought more into conformity with Christ's example the longer we are Christians. Not every Christian will achieve the same level of conformity, and progress may be measured in inches instead of feet. It is the Holy Spirit that is at work in us to make us more like Christ. But we cannot use that as an excuse not to obey, as some do.

Please take a look at the following passage from Ephesians.

Ephesians 4:17--32 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!—assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Why would the Apostle Paul command the believers in Ephesians to do anything? Anything? If there is no human involvement in sanctification then why not just stop once an individual places their faith in Christ? These are valid questions that I would like an answer to.

 

[Aaron]

Aaron, if you reference the OP I never mentioned Lordship Salvation.

My mistake. Carry on.

 

[DHK]

But I didn't write about the "too many", and I never once suggested our obedience is not accomplished separate from trusting in the Holy Spirit.

Too many Christians want to be like Christ without being told they need to be l like Christ. Functional Antinomianism.

How is it "functional antinomianism" to set the alarm the night before, get up early Sunday morning, make sure all the children are ready, get to church in time for Sunday School, do that which is required of you, and come home. You do what you must out of duty--day in and day out. Often it is routine. Hopefully it is joyful, but you know there are days when it is not. This is not trusting in the Holy Spirit. It is far from it.
It is doing what is expected of you, because Christ expects it of you.
We love him because He first loved us.
The love of Christ constrains us.
There is some bad theology going around here.

 

[Iconoclast]

thisnumbersdisconnected

Hello Dcon,

Let me make this plain, Icon

:

That is always good in my book!

I respect you greatly. You are obviously well read and have done what appear, from your posts, to be monumental studies on the subject.

I have many defects Dcon....the same way I am critical of some on here,
I am not afraid to look at myself and see where I come up way short of where I should be. God has been good to me in that every job I have had has allowed me to read and listen to sermons more than most people.

For years I received tapes from Dallas. Theological Seminary...Believers Chapel...and three other ministries that had free loan libraries.

I learned the premill system back then and was taught that it alone was the truth...I have learned more since then....

I was totally stunned by the writings of the puritans and reformers.I like most people had a negative impression of them...until I actually read some of what they wrote....

I read and listen critically...I filter things.

I just do not agree with your interpretation and likely never will. I can, but I must take issue with your 400-year-old dead men who, I firmly believe, made bad interpretation of the same Scripture.

I believe what we believe or do not believe is allowed by God. At one point in time I believed that anyone not a dispensational premill was on the edge of apostasy.

Naturally, I'm sure, you will see that I believe my "man" -- Tom Stegall -- makes a correct interpretation. I see that, in both our cases, it is a simple matter of believing a man not because of what the man says, but because he agrees with what we've studied.

if the truth be known...everyone does this...so when I link to a confession or writing and this objection comes out...I reject it.

For me, that entails a great deal of reading and note-taking over the 21 years I've been a Christian. I came to these conclusions before I knew who Tom Stegall or any other modern Christian author and theologian was.

Dconn....I believe you should serve the Lord believing what you think is the truth...go with what you know...until you know a better way, or more accurate explanation of truth.

I did so at the behest of my first pastor who evidently saw in me a thirst for knowledge he knew must be satisfied.

This is a good sign of health and growth, and wisdom of a pastor feeding a young growing believer.

Probably because within six months of salvation I was asking him questions about Calvinism, Arminianism, Reformed theology, etc. I was desirous of learning everything I could about what God said and did, and various factions of believers at that church were throwing all sorts of things at me --

I did not have any knowledge of these terms and controversies until I started getting Dallas tapes....bought my Scofield bible, Strongs and Youngs concordance, then read Berkofs systematic theology, Dagg, Boyce ,Bancroft, bought the metropolitan tabernacle set with the new park street pulpit to start with...lol God saved me and their was a radical change in a short amount of time...I have never gotten over it. My library grew...Matthew Henry, Pink, John Murray, John Owen, etc

additionally to those, I also was "courted" by KJV Onlyists, and by those who held to Primitive theology (there are no strong Primitive churches in the KC area), and several others.

I avoided that mess.

He urged me to take no man's word for anything.

prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.

His suggested investment in a Thayer and Smith dictionary, the Complete Word Study Hebrew Lexicon, and Spiros Zodhiates' "Complete Greek Word Study Dictionary/Lexicon" and the NASB Key Word Study Bible Zodhiates edited was a Godsend.

I use Zondervans Pictoral bible dictionary. good tools are a plus

Obviously my studies led me to commentaries and exhaustive studies of several different topics. I got to the point that I felt I needed directed study, and audited several courses at a local interdenominational Bible college that is closely aligned with MBTS here.

:thumbsup:

I would have gone to Midwestern's Bible college, but it was an hour and half drive round trip and I didn't have time to do that and work and raise two kids by myself -- my ex having abandoned them for a drug-fuzzed boyfriend who eventually wound up in prison. But that's another story.

we live in a day where many drift away from the safety of Gods word and sow to the flesh. Sorry to hear of that.

All that to say, I haven't reached my conclusions by reading other people's works. But I also don't have the education to put some of these deeper thoughts into words, and I often use other sources to help me organize my thoughts. Nonetheless, I believed the viewpoint I hold long before I found men of a theological basis who hold to the same views

.

Well okay...but you are here now in the providence of God...lets help each other grow. Any growth I have had was mostly the result of being challenged, not coddled by soft spoken, politically correct speech.

I've done a great deal of soul searching lately, Icon. I've found a lot of rough edges on me that I need God to sandpaper off, and I'm submitting myself to Him to do so.

This particular board can be rough because of the divergent views espoused.
I posted in here about 8 to 10 times..before being attacked:laugh:

I was caught off guard...but you might have noticed...in boxing terms...I am a counter-puncher....if someone wants help...I try to help.. if someone offers an attack...I respond as such.....

Your views and mine clash big time...so we will go after each other more than some do.

I've been harsh, and oftentimes cruel not just to you but to others who come to points of contention with me.

Dcon... I do not mind that personally if It does not get to personal so to speak...If I come at your points of view very hard..I expect some return fire .

NNE BELIEVES WHAT THEY POST IS ERROR.....or they would not post it..correct...yet both teachings are not correct.

That being said....we can heat up and be "harsh" and indeed sinfully so.
I would prefer to stay on topic and intense about it...I prefer someone to have some passion about what they believe, than some luke warm wuess who does not get to the point...that does not help anyone- a hothead does not help either...so we have to find an approach that is intent on truth but speaks the truth...in love.

I do not think anyone attempts to over heat...but most of us do.

I think these are probably leftovers from a 20-year military career in which I rose through the ranks preaching a "my-way-or-the-highway" kind of philosophy while also managing to listen to opposing views before rejecting them.

not much different for me on the road...I meet many people on the fly..have to read them quickly and look for gospel opportunites each day... I do not have as many chances for a long term relationship, except as I return to some customers.
see pt 2

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

Trying to change my mind is pointless. It won't happen without overwhelming evidence to discredit what I've studied and concluded.

You cannot change unless God changes you....I will offer what I have learned as truth...sometimes it comes across as arrogance....

That I believe is because when I have read some of the best views that oppose what I believe already, and someone offers them to me as if I have never heard the position and considered it.. they are at a disadvantage from the start...They do not know the other position well enough to offer on it...

I cannot discount what I have learned ....and make believe like I have not learned it...it is confidence in the truth of God...not arrogance that I am pulling something out of my butt to "win" a discussion point.

The attitude you sometimes push, of which I and others have accused you, that if we don't believe as you, we are dead wrong and maybe even lost, rankles.

Dconn...I make use of those scriptures that press upon a person to examine themselves, or point out those verses that speak of the marks of the regenerate, and the marks of the unregenerate.....

My memory is not that good anymore as I am in decline to a certain extent...but I believe I have been gifted to retain scripture in a way that when asked a question on a topic... it comes to mind..lol
the other day DHK said I was using some kind of biblesoftware...I do not have any....lol..it is just me sitting at the keyboard...lol God has equipped me to do this..it is not unique...but I can do it...I have to when I am in public I cannot cut and paste as people complain about here....it has to just come out...I pray for the ability to help with a word in season...and I am thankful to God for the times I canspeak truth to those who God brings before me.
Every person I meet is by Divine appointment...so I pray to be ready and to be used......BB helps me stay sharp...especially the disagreements:thumbsup:

But then, I manage to come off the same way. Two wrongs don't make a right.

if you think I am in error..it is your duty to confront me based on what I said...not make strawmen like DHK....in the past year he has said I deny the word of God, post like the heretic Origen, believe in sinless perfection, have another gospel, etc.... I will deal with him shortly:laugh:

Perhaps you won't agree with me that you operate in that mode

.

Enough people have complained about it...where there is smoke there is fire around somewhere. I do not intend to harm anyone personally, but if I detect a mocking of God , or my cal brothers....I will respond to the full and go wherever I think the response needs to go...

Someone like QF...is a very mellow nice guy...he will get mad at you.. but is more the bless you heart southern style put down person... looking for the high ground . That is not our case is it?

If so, that's all right. Nevertheless, I admit to you and others here that I have operated thusly. I offer you my apologies, I ask you your forgiveness, and God's.

If I have unnecessarily caused offense to you, that was not my intention.
I do not have thin skin so no need to apologize...but we can both agree to tone it down on the personal front .:wavey:

I just won't waver from my opinions. Fair enough?

I think that is quite fair DCON...I do not want you to shrink back from your opinions...but when they come at what I believe...I will respond as I believe there is only one truth on each area of study...God's truth...so lets strive to faithful.

 

[Reformed]

How is it "functional antinomianism" to set the alarm the night before, get up early Sunday morning, make sure all the children are ready, get to church in time for Sunday School, do that which is required of you, and come home. You do what you must out of duty--day in and day out. Often it is routine. Hopefully it is joyful, but you know there are days when it is not. This is not trusting in the Holy Spirit. It is far from it.
It is doing what is expected of you, because Christ expects it of you.
We love him because He first loved us.
The love of Christ constrains us.

Technically speaking, functional antinomianism is separating the imperative to put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph. 4:24) from sanctification, while at the same time denying that is being done. I have written more than once in this thread that the work of progressive sanctification (becoming more like Christ) is the work of God. God prevails on the heart of his children, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, to become more Christ-like. Painful. Agonizingly slow at times, and invisible at others. Sometimes looking as though the Christian is going in reverse. But the Christian will press on for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (Phil. 3:14).

There is some bad theology going around here.

Yes. Yes there is.

 

[Reformed]

To those who disagree with me and my brother Icon, may I be bold enough to speak for him and say that neither of us is upset that you disagree with us. I am thankful for some of irenic responses from "the other side". But one thing is clearly evident to me. Much of the criticism we have received is based on a misunderstanding of our argument. This comes from defensive thinking which all of us are prone to. I have to beware of it in the Calvinist/Arminian threads. I have forced myself to read and re-read my posts before submitting them to make sure I am not being lazy in my defense of the gospel as I understand it. I also need to constantly work at framing my opponents argument properly. In other words I need to understand it or else I will be misrepresenting them. That is what I see happening in this thread. There is a reaction against progressive sanctification that seems to be rooted in the erroneous understanding that works are being added to the gospel. That certainly is not the case.

Perhaps it would be better if some, who are interested in continuing this discussion, ask questions that we will attempt to answer. Rev. Mitchell did this in this thread --> God's Emotion Towards Those Who Perish In Their Sins. He asked questions which forced me to clarify some of my statements. This resulted in a better understanding of both our positions. Thank you, Rev.

Just something to think about this fine Independence Day morning.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Icon ...

(it just struck me, "Icon and Dconn" ... what a pair, heh? :laugh: ) ...

Your post is a very elegant and direct "conversation," such as is possible on a message board, and I greatly appreciate it. I find nothing which requires further comment, other than what I've quoted below, and truly appreciate the time and effort you put into it. There are some additional things I want you and others to know about me, because it will probably clarify much of what I post here, and help you understand the reasoning behind those posts. I'm not necessarily talking about my faith, but how it gets expressed in the realm of what I do in the "real world."

First, let me say I truly enjoy writing, which is a good thing given that my profession requires a great deal of it. It is one of the reasons I participate here, as it exercises writing skills that dull, terminology-laden case reports can't, given I have to meet state guidelines in providing sufficient information for when the state asks to see my files.

I know you have skepticism about that profession. Frankly, I do too. Unfortunately, many who practice it are convinced that the power to change the human mind comes from within the very defective mind that needs changing! Ridiculous, of course, but when I was getting -- and continue to get -- the education necessary to practice, it was obvious I needed to regurgitate back to them what they wanted to hear so I could pass the courses without turmoil over my faith.

Some would say that is compromise. I say it is working within the belly of the beast to change it.

Over the past several years, those of us who are Christian and in this profession have provided the statistics for what is know as evidence-based practice to prove that spirituality is a key to recovery and mental health. Naturally we see this as Christian faith, but the political correctness of the profession and the world in general demands we not say that. Tough. I say it anyway, when I am confident that I can do so safely with a client who is open to it. Yes, I use the "jargon" of secular recovery, but I find that it actually matches up quite well with the biblical basis for my practice, too, and biblically is the only way I practice. When I use phrases that you identify as "secular" and "worldly" let me assure you, I use them within a faith-based spiritual framework.

Despite itself, the "recovery industry" has found no better method than the Twelve Steps by which to recover. They've tried, but without success. The reason, I am convinced, is that the Twelve Steps were derived from an accurate application of biblical principles. Regardless of what "Anonymous" group is using them, they were conceived, developed and codified by William Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, better knows as "Bill W. and Dr. Bob," the two "hopeless drunks" who founded AA. They were also Christians, frustrated with the legalistic approach that they received from family and others in the early 20th Century U.S. church who basically beat them over the head with the Bible and demanded the "just sober up." It might work for some. It doesn't work for everyone, and thank God He gave Dr. Bob and Bill W. the tools for a spiritually based recovery program that Bill frankly admitted should lead the recovering addict to Christ.

I know all this is terribly off-topic for this thread -- unless you realize that a "program" or a "method" that points a tertiary or would-be believer toward hope in the living God through Jesus Christ, the only Being he or she may be able to grasp as truly being greater and more powerful than their own ego, is nothing more than progressive sanctification. OK, how's that for getting it all pulled back in line with the discussion? :laugh:

I really need, if I want to develop this further, to start a new thread, though for the life of me I have no clue what forum on this board it would fit it, other than "All Other Discussions." I will finish this up by saying that my own past -- military, PTSD, alcohol dependent, disordered gambler, liar, forger, prisoner of the state and rightfully so, is what led me to this profession. As I've also stated, I build houses. I did that for a while after the military. I love doing it. It is my escape and my solitude in many instances, getting me away from the stress of counseling and enabling me to appreciate the other talents God has given me.

It also makes for a nice retirement.

That is not our case is it?

It hasn't been, no. I see no reason whatsoever that it can't be. Your post this morning has helped me see more of who you are, and you are now so much more than a "face in a photo" and impersonal words of opinion, I can't treat you as I've treated you in the past. And I won't.

If I have unnecessarily caused offense to you, that was not my intention.
I do not have thin skin so no need to apologize...but we can both agree to tone it down on the personal front .:wavey:

Amen, brother, Amen.

I think that is quite fair DCON...I do not want you to shrink back from your opinions...but when they come at what I believe...I will respond as I believe there is only one truth on each area of study...God's truth...so lets strive to faithful.

I couldn't agree more. Happy 4th! I hope you are getting to spend it with family and not some lonely truck stop and 100-mile coffee a dozen times today. :godisgood:

 

[Iconoclast]

Reformed

Hello brother,

To those who disagree with me and my brother Icon, may I be bold enough to speak for him and say that neither of us is upset that you disagree with us. I am thankful for some of irenic responses from "the other side". But one thing is clearly evident to me. Much of the criticism we have received is based on a misunderstanding of our argument.

You can speak for me anytime.Your posts are always solid and are clearly meant to provide food for thought and clarify difficult issues////you , archangel Biblicist, thousand hills , ripppon,JBH28,con1,etc ...consistently do this:thumbsup:

This comes from defensive thinking which all of us are prone to. I have to beware of it in the Calvinist/Arminian threads. I have forced myself to read and re-read my posts before submitting them to make sure I am not being lazy in my defense of the gospel as I understand it

.

this is the best we can do...make a clear presentation...then it between the person and their God.

I also need to constantly work at framing my opponents argument properly. In other words I need to understand it or else I will be misrepresenting them. That is what I see happening in this thread. There is a reaction against progressive sanctification that seems to be rooted in the erroneous understanding that works are being added to the gospel. That certainly is not the case. [/QUOTE]
Perhaps it would be better if some, who are interested in continuing this discussion, ask questions that we will attempt to answer. Rev. Mitchell did this in this thread --> God's Emotion Towards Those Who Perish In Their Sins. He asked questions which forced me to clarify some of my statements. This resulted in a better understanding of both our positions. Thank you, Rev.

Just something to think about this fine Independence Day morning.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: