Romans 6.....is there water baptism in the passage, or Spirit baptism ..primarily?

[JamesL]

JamesL


We are not said to be "buried into Christ"...we are said to be united to Him ......when He died, we died...when he rose we rose.

Paul said we are "buried with Him" in baptism - Baptismatos - Baptism into what? Into death (Rom 6:4). He was "buried" in a tomb. Then He was raised OUT OF that tomb. Paul also said in verse 4 "JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead, so we too might walk in newness of life"

He was PLACED into a tomb - buried. If your view has us being placed into Christ, then it means buried into Christ, or immersed into the body of Christ

Even from you John Owen quote:

Thus the apostle refers to our baptism "into Christ"

In other words, partaking of Christ's death and resurrection is through baptism into Him

But even more, Paul said that we are baptized into death. If being baptized into death means baptized into Christ, then are you suggesting that Christ is death?


Further, you are refusing to address RAISED.

He was raised OUT OF that which He was placed into - the tomb.

If our immersion is into Him, then we must be raised OUT OF Him to walk in newness of life

And that is utter nonsense


Until you address RAISED, then you are simply regurgitating the vies of others

 

[convicted1]

Did you take the time to read carefully the quote that Icon posted in the OP?
Here is one part you may have missed:
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Wherever the post comes from there is no suggestion that water saves as you infer. On the contrary, the exact opposite is strongly affirmed.
[/COLOR]
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The water baptism is the covenant betwixt us and the church...w/o it, we can't join the local church. Much like the circumcision was a sign of entering into the OT covenant.


But the water has nothing salvific in and of itself. There is something much deeper that has to take place first....the circumcision of the heart made w/o hands....being Spiritually in Christ...then one is a valid canidate for water submersion....

 

[convicted1]

The water buries the old man....

 

[JamesL]

The water buries the old man....

That seems to conflict with:

Baptism spoken of here in Romans 6 is referring to Spiritual baptism, imo.......
We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

Can you explain what you mean?

 

[convicted1]

That seems to conflict with:





Can you explain what you mean?

The old man, the dead soul, has to be buried. The water baptism is a way of symbollically burying that old man.

 

[JamesL]

The old man, the dead soul, has to be buried. The water baptism is a way of symbollically burying that old man.

I get what you meant with that, but how does that mesh with what you wrote about Romans 6 being a spiritual baptism?

 

[convicted1]

I'm on my Nook right now....have to get deeper when I'm on a computer where I can copy and paste scriptures...

 

[Iconoclast]

The word tomb is not in the text.You are confusing yourself with it.

the views of the others are quite clear if someone wants to see what the text says.

 

[JamesL]

Who asked you to respond to "tomb" ?

I said you're dodging the word RAISED.

It's disingenuous, and you know it. You're too proud to admit you have no answer. All you have to do is say you don't know how to answer, that the question confounds you, and that you can't find an answer in a web page somewhere.

But when do you ever do that?

 

[Iconoclast]

Who asked you to respond to "tomb" ?

I said you're dodging the word RAISED.

It's disingenuous, and you know it. You're too proud to admit you have no answer. All you have to do is say you don't know how to answer, that the question confounds you, and that you can't find an answer in a web page somewhere.

But when do you ever do that?

Your error in post 15 needed a response so it was actually you who invited the response.
I am not dodging anything just staying on the topic of the OP.

There is no reason for your accusations although you are welcome to your opinion. I have an opinion also.My opinion is that you would not ask the question if you understand what is being discussed.
We are told that being raised has to do with walking in newness of life without being bound by sin.....it is about our new life as new creatures...if you understood the verses I offered from Eph. .4....5 you would not ask your question.

I can handle any question you have....however you are not really looking for an answer are you?

The links posted are very solid....perhaps that is why you struggle with them as you prefer to offer your own novelties that are not consistent with truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

This text must be interpreted in keeping with the preceding context. Paul has just finished demonstrating that we are justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 3:24-5:2) and that this righteousness imputed to believers is based upon the sufficiency of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:3-11) because of his substitutionary Person (Rom. 5:3-22) so that where sin abounded Grace did much more abound (Rom. 5:21).

Now the question is asked "shall we sin that grace may abound?" (Rom. 6:1). In other words, does imputed righteousness or justification by faith give a license to sin?

Paul's immediate response is "God forbid"

Look at verses 2 and 7 - both point back to the substitutionary work of Christ in Romans 5:12-21 and how Christ reversed the consequences of Adam in regard to death for all that are in Christ positionally by faith. However, we are "in Christ" more than mere position due to substitution, there is "justification of life" (5:18) whereby we are "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) or divine quickening (Eph. 2:1,5,10) due to the substituitonary work of Christ.

Hence, we are "dead" to sin due to substitutionary death to sin received positionally by faith (v. 2) but we are also "freed" from the power of sin due to substitutionary resurrection received personally by regeneration (v. 7).

In water baptism the "likeness" of both truths are IDENTIFIED with openly and publicly (vv. 3-6).

Hence, water baptism is the perfect illustration to begin with to remind them that one truth does not occur without the other. Water baptism IDENTIFIES us with both realities. The realities are not conferred literally in baptism, but the likeness with those realities are literally conferred in baptism as baptism provides public identification with both realities.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If the water was all the poster said it is, then we could save everyone by sticking them under water.

The poster -- the member quoted in Icon's OP -- states clearly,"What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you." He makes it clear that water baptism is a symbol, not a saving ordinance.

We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, and not H20....

I don't believe he said anything else.

Paul did not say.........nothing has happened.....he said the old man was crucified with Christ....that is the great truth that is being dismissed....which if read correctly...no one would believe that...even the person who posted it!

I believe you and others miss your anonymous poster's point. Just as Paul did, your poster is stating, and I believe correctly, that Romans 6:3-6 speaks of both spiritual baptism and water baptism. Here is what John Gill said about v. 3:

BibleStudyTools: Gill Commentary, Romans 6:3http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-6-3.htmlhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-6-3.html

were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death:
and therefore must be dead to sin, and consequently ought not to live, nor can they live in sin. This does not suppose, that some of this church were baptized persons, and others not; but that some might be baptized in water who were not baptized into Christ: there is a difference between being baptized in water in the name of Christ, and being baptized into Christ, which believers in their baptism are; by which is meant, not a being brought by it into union with Christ, which is either secretly from eternity, or openly at conversion, and both before the baptism of true believers; nor a being brought by it into the mystical body of Christ the church, for this also is before it; but rather it designs a being baptized, or a being brought by baptism into more communion with Christ, into a participation of his grace and benefits; or into the doctrine of Christ, and a more distinct knowledge of it: the power of which they feel upon their hearts, and so have really believed in Christ, heartily love him, and make a sincere profession of him; though rather the true meaning of the phrase "baptized into Christ", I take to be, is to be baptized purely for the sake of Christ, in imitation of him, who has set us an example, and because baptism is an ordinance of his; it is to submit to it with a view to his glory, to testify our affection for him, and subjection to him, without laying any stress or dependence on it for salvation; such who are thus baptized, are "baptized into his death"; they not only resemble Christ in his sufferings and death, by being immersed in water, but they declare their faith in the death of Christ, and also share in the benefits of his death; such as peace, pardon, righteousness, and atonement: now this proves, that such persons are dead to sin, who are so baptized; for by the death of Christ, into which they are baptized, they are justified from sin; by the death of Christ, their old man is crucified, and the body of sin destroyed; besides, believers in baptism profess themselves to be dead to sin and the world, and their baptism is an obligation upon them to live unto righteousness.

Gill speaks clearly of vv. 4-6 relating to both the spiritual baptism and the ordinance or public immersion, which he intertwined in his exposition of v. 3. I believe the poster you quoted in your OP, Icon, had the same intertwined concept in mind, but then again, I could be wrong.

My mind reading capabilities seem to have utterly failed to develop, particularly in relationship to reading the thoughts of posters on message boards. :laugh:

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe correctly, that Romans 6:3-6 speaks of both spiritual baptism and water baptism.

We are "created" in Christ Jesus, which is explicitly defined as being "quickened" (Eph. 2:1,5,10) or regeneration and regeneration is not "spiritual baptism" as regeneration occurred before (Jn. 3) and after Pentecost but the baptism in the Spirit as promised by The Baptist and Christ did not occur prior to Pentecost (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5).

Romans 4:3-6 speaks only of water baptism as the visible illustration in public identification with Christ POSITIONALLY and REGENERATIVELY denies that the justified will continue in sin.

 

[convicted1]

We who have been saved, have been placed in....immersed....in Christ. God sees us through Christ now. We now are dead, and our life is hid with...again immersed.... with Christ in God. God sees us now as righteous because He sees us being holy in Christ.....again, immersed in Christ. Christ is our righteous covering, as we have the wedding garment on.


Romans 6:7 for he who hath died hath been set free from sin.YLT

This right here is referring to the inner man. Our fleshly body has not been set free from sin. We still struggle with sin. Our flesh desires, craves, yearns, lusts after sin. But it no longer reigns over us.

Romans 6:14 for sin over you shall have not lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.YLT


As Brother Iconoclast previously stated, when Christ died, we died. When He arose, we arose. He did everything for us, having tasted death for us, and also rising for us.

 

[Yeshua1]

RM...how so?

Does water quicken us...or the Spirit of God?

By application this passage is used by Baptists in describing what water baptism symbolizes....that is the reality of what Spirit baptism has done on our behalf.

If you see water here primarily...that would be speaking of baptismal regeneration that none of us hold to....correct???

The passage is speaking about what the water baptism symbolizes/stands for in the life of a Christian...
We were bured in His death, in union/identified with Him, and was raised up in and by him him...

So that baptism referred to there was the ordinance of warwe baptism, but what actually happened to all who have believed unto Jesus before taking the water is what he is talking about baptism portrays!

Same fashion peter likens water baptism to salvation in christ...

 

[convicted1]

The passage is speaking about what the water baptism symbolizes/stands for in the life of a Christian...
We were bured in His death, in union/identified with Him, and was raised up in and by him him...

So that baptism referred to there was the ordinance of warwe baptism, but what actually happened to all who have believed unto Jesus before taking the water is what he is talking about baptism portrays!

Same fashion peter likens water baptism to salvation in christ...

Please reread post #34.....

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist

This text must be interpreted in keeping with the preceding context. Paul has just finished demonstrating that we are justified by faith in Christ (Rom. 3:24-5:2) and that this righteousness imputed to believers is based upon the sufficiency of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:3-11) because of his substitutionary Person (Rom. 5:3-22) so that where sin abounded Grace did much more abound (Rom. 5:21).

Now the question is asked "shall we sin that grace may abound?" (Rom. 6:1). In other words, does imputed righteousness or justification by faith give a license to sin?

Paul's immediate response is "God forbid"

This is a necessary part of the puzzle and to proceed without this in mind does create havoc.

Look at verses 2 and 7 - both point back to the substitutionary work of Christ in Romans 5:12-21 and how Christ reversed the consequences of Adam in regard to death for all that are in Christ positionally by faith. However, we are "in Christ" more than mere position due to substitution, there is "justification of life" (5:18) whereby we are "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) or divine quickening (Eph. 2:1,5,10) due to the substituitonary work of Christ.

exactly....Paul is showing who we were in the first Adam...but now who we are in the second Adam.

Again failing to see this makes the theological ship drift away from the safe harbor.

Hence, we are "dead" to sin due to substitutionary death to sin received positionally by faith (v. 2) but we are also "freed" from the power of sin due to substitutionary resurrection received personally by regeneration (v. 7).

:thumbsup:
In water baptism the "likeness" of both truths are IDENTIFIED with openly and publicly (vv. 3-6).

Hence, water baptism is the perfect illustration to begin with to remind them that one truth does not occur without the other. Water baptism IDENTIFIES us with both realities. The realities are not conferred literally in baptism, but the likeness with those realities are literally conferred in baptism as baptism provides public identification with both realities.[/QUOTE]

I agree in part if I understand you correctly here... I am not quite sure how you mean this.

Do you agree that Spirit baptism is in view here......as the backbone of what water baptism illustrates for true believers?

 

[Yeshua1]

We who have been saved, have been placed in....immersed....in Christ. God sees us through Christ now. We now are dead, and our life is hid with...again immersed.... with Christ in God. God sees us now as righteous because He sees us being holy in Christ.....again, immersed in Christ. Christ is our righteous covering, as we have the wedding garment on.


Romans 6:7 for he who hath died hath been set free from sin.YLT

This right here is referring to the inner man. Our fleshly body has not been set free from sin. We still struggle with sin. Our flesh desires, craves, yearns, lusts after sin. But it no longer reigns over us.

Romans 6:14 for sin over you shall have not lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.YLT


As Brother Iconoclast previously stated, when Christ died, we died. When He arose, we arose. He did everything for us, having tasted death for us, and also rising for us.

We have been made new creations in Christ, but still he allowed us to keep that flesh/sin ful part of us that wants to deny to do will of God!

Nothing states that once saved, we are freed from experiencing the lusts/desires of the flesh, as we are commanded to keep that part of us crucified in/with Christ!

 

[convicted1]

We have been made new creations in Christ, but still he allowed us to keep that flesh/sin ful part of us that wants to deny to do will of God!

Nothing states that once saved, we are freed from experiencing the lusts/desires of the flesh, as we are commanded to keep that part of us crucified in/with Christ!

I didn't say we were free to sin. I just said our flesh still lusts after sin....

 

[Iconoclast]

thisnumbersdisconnected;

My mind reading capabilities seem to have utterly failed to develop, particularly in relationship to reading the thoughts of posters on message boards.

We do not have to read his mind...we can read his post...he said

Our baptism is a picture. It is symbolic of our death to our sinful life and our resurrection to a new life in Christ. We do not believe in baptismal regeneration. It is purely symbolic. There is nothing that actually happened here. It is symbolic.
What did the water do? It made you wet! It didn't make you any more holy or save you.

The passage describes the work of the Spirit...not the work of the water. Something happened in the passage. It was not symbolic..it is actual.