Blood Guilt

[Gina B]

If this is not allowed, I apologize. I started a thread on Israel in the news forum, which a moderator closed when people started discussing "blood guilt."
I find the the viewpoints of some quite offensive, yet my curiosity is peaked. I want to know what people think.
It really has been an odd journey in faith to discover the beliefs people have. What is said, thought, that seems so at odds with - well, what is.
Some here really believe they are not guilty - why then the need for a savior? And what does that make a believing Jew? I do not understand your mindset. You speak with seeming hatred, saying "You killed my Messiah." Now that the Jews are scattered, how does it make sense to say that those in the land are paying for it now, being punished?
Please explain what you believe about blood guilt.

 

[kyredneck]

'Blood guilt' is all through the scriptures, first mention in Gen 4:10. Even David, it was because of blood guilt that the sword never left his house. Do you have a problem with the declaration of Christ in Mt 23:34-36?

 

[padredurand]

'Blood guilt' is all through the scriptures, first mention in Gen 4:10. Even David, it was because of blood guilt that the sword never left his house. Do you have a problem with the declaration of Christ in Mt 23:34-36?

I don't have a problem with Jesus' declaration in Matthew 23. I have a problem with applying it, in any sense, to modern Israel. The eight Woes were specifically addressed to the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:13 KJV
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

How would you apply this in any current situation without divorcing it from its context?

 

[kyredneck]

I don't have a problem with Jesus' declaration in Matthew 23. I have a problem with applying it, in any sense, to modern Israel.

I've never applied it to modern Israel, I took issue with dCON applying His blood guilt to us all.

Modern Israel has it's own blood guilt of recent history to answer for.

The eight Woes were specifically addressed to the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:13 KJV
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

How would you apply this in any current situation without divorcing it from its context?

I don't.

 

[Reformed]

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) (Gal. 3:28). Similarly ethnic or religious identity means nothing outside of Christ ("for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom. 6:23a).

As far as blood guilt goes, Jews today are not guilty of the sins of their ancestors any more than Gentiles are. Matthew 23 was a railing judgment against the nation of Israel and its ritualistic Judaism. The nation was judged, not just by the divided kingdom and eventual captivities and exiles, but also by Jerusalem's destruction in AD 69-70. Israel ceased to be a nation-state at that time.

Your standing with Christ is determined by your faith in Him, or not. What your ancestors did or did not do before you has absolutely no bearing on your eternal destiny.

 

[padredurand]

I've never applied it to modern Israel, I took issue with dCON applying His blood guilt to us all.

Modern Israel has it's own blood guilt of recent history to answer for.



I don't.

Thank you for the clarification. :thumbs:

 

[Gina B]

kyredneck:
I would like to know if what I perceive as dislike of other races, on your part, has to do with this belief in blood guilt.
I do not ask this to pick a fight or start an argument. I just want to know the root. Is it personal or does it come from a religious belief? I have, in the past, met people who felt certain races/offspring are cursed throughout the generations because of sins. Your mention of Genesis brought up a memory of a group who felt the curse of Cain was upon all black people. Then those who believe all Jews are guilty of killing the Messiah.
Is this along your line of thinking?

 

[The Biblicist]

kyredneck:
I would like to know if what I perceive as dislike of other races, on your part, has to do with this belief in blood guilt.
I do not ask this to pick a fight or start an argument. I just want to know the root. Is it personal or does it come from a religious belief? I have, in the past, met people who felt certain races/offspring are cursed throughout the generations because of sins. Your mention of Genesis brought up a memory of a group who felt the curse of Cain was upon all black people. Then those who believe all Jews are guilty of killing the Messiah.
Is this along your line of thinking?

Did not Christ specificaly and clearly say that such condemnation would culiminate UPON THIS GENERATION? That is the present generation facing him and committing this act toward him?

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck:
I would like to know if what I perceive as dislike of other races, on your part....

Are you a slanderer in real life also, or only on a forum such as this?

I would love for you to pinpoint the root of why you think such things of me. Show it to me, the things you've smeared me with.

 

[Gina B]

Biblicist, what type of bloodguilt reference do you think is being made in Joel 3:21?

The passage is interesting.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, what type of bloodguilt reference do you think is being made in Joel 3:21?

The passage is interesting.

Gina, in context it seems to refer to verse 19, in the sense of seeking vengance by God upon those who shed the "innocent blood" His people.

 

[Gina B]

kyredneck, I apologize if there is any in accuracy. I actually have had you on ignore for maybe a couple years, and just took it off today in hopes of understanding you better.
I did it in the first place after I read one too many comments that seemed racially prejudiced. My family is mixed and I remember thinking "that was not what it seemed," but then it kept happening.
I thought perhaps this concept expressed lately might explain your views. I cannot go back at the moment without a computer, but assure you that being the only person to make it and stay on that list, I did not do it lightly. Go back and look at your words if you do not realize their weight. Please.

 

[kyredneck]

You need to go back and look at my words and see to what they've always been directed, it's the very costly dangerous theopolitical system that will most likely eventually bring on WW3, with Israel at the center of it.

I haven't a racist or hateful bone in my body.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've never applied it to modern Israel, I took issue with dCON applying His blood guilt to us all.

Modern Israel has it's own blood guilt of recent history to answer for.



I don't.

Whatever national israel has been guilty of since 1948. there were NEVER the ones starting the wars against them, and they always held that the Muslims/Arabs were OK to keep their nations, but except for Egypt I Belive, NONE of her enemies even grant the Jews the right to exist!

How can that be right in sight of God?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Holding the Jews of today responsible for the death of Christ is as ludicrous as the view of black activists that they should receive reparations from the government for the wrongs done their ancestors. It was the men of the Sanhedrin of the early first century who orchestrated Christ's crucifixion, not the Jewish people of this age. Further, that crucifixion was God's plan from the very beginning, and it was in some way, form and fashion going to be carried out regardless.

Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ, true. What happened in His passion cannot be charged against all Jews without distinction, whether alive then or now. Although the Church is also the people of God, the Jewish remnant should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. In fact, it does not, as the last word on the Jews from the Old Testament denies this false teaching.

Malachi 3, NASB
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed."​

I wonder, does it bother any of you who hold to this false "blood-guilt" doctrine concerning the death of Christ that Hitler, upon leaving a Passion play in 1934, is reported to have said,"The whole world over should see ... this Passion play, then they will understand why I despise the Jews and why they deserve to die."

If not, it should.

 

[kyredneck]

Whatever national israel has been guilty of since 1948. there were NEVER the ones starting the wars against them....

Educate yourself with the facts:

Expulsion of the Palestinians

 

[The Biblicist]

Educate yourself with the facts:

Expulsion of the Palestinians

He just educated you by the fact of God's immutability as the basis for not destroying NATURAL Israel, as "sons of Jacob" is the descriptive for NATURAL Israel in this context, as he is addressing DISOBEDIENT Israel.

 

[kyredneck]

So Bib, how sure are you that the present state of Israel is the "final form"?

So sure that you believe we as Christians should abandon all discernment of right and wrong and support/condone everything they do or have done?

 

[Yeshua1]

So Bib, how sure are you that the present state of Israel is the "final form"?

So sure that you believe we as Christians should abandon all discernment of right and wrong and support/condone everything they do or have done?

the Jews still have the promised Goid gave to them yet to be fully fulfilled, and again the issue to address here is which side has done the worst in Middle east?

Did the arab muslims nations declare and execute war on the jewish peoples every time or not?

have the islamic nations, other then Egyptt, even recognise the right of the Jews to exist as a people, much less as their own nation?

And God brought upon Israel getting their nation back, so your real complaint would be with Him!

 

[kyredneck]

So Yesh, how sure are you that the present state of Israel is the "final form"?

So sure that you believe we as Christians should abandon all discernment of right and wrong and support/condone everything they do or have done?