Featured Eschatology

That's a misunderstanding of the teaching of dispensationalism, mostly promoted by people who don't agree with the theology. The present age is not a historical parenthesis unrelated to the history that precedes and follows it. It is, instead, an integrated phase in the development of the mediatorial kingdom, that period between The Fall and The Restoration.

No. Simply untrue. Covenantalists seem to be unable to grasp that the promises God gave to Abram, though partially fulfilled in the gift of Christ (The Seed) and His sacrifice (The Blessing), have never been fulfilled regarding The Land. The Israelites occupied part of that land, but by their own might, not by their God. He has promised them unchallenged, unfettered use of that land, and it will be granted to them at the end of the Tribulation.

That represents, in my opinion, a very narrow, even myopic view of God's purpose for Israel. But then again, the Calvinist seems to think God has created some for destruction without ever giving them a hope of salvation, which is rubbish as well, so it's not surprising there are those who hold to that unbiblical view of God's chosen nation.

Not as long as there is a promise dangling out there as yet unfulfilled for them.

Wouldn't know about that. I'm not "hyper" about anything. :laugh: :thumbsup:

 

You need to expand your knowledge of the dispensationalism of Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Pentecost, Walvoord, etc.

Feel free to dispute Scripture:

1 Kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

I would say your view of Israel is myopic or nearsighted. You seem to be unable to comprehend God's purpose in the Salvation of His people. I would note that I am not a Calvinist but rather I believe Scripture.

1 Peter 2:9
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Romans 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Acts 13:48,
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Romans 8:29-31
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Why is it that some dispensationalists have no difficulty believing that God chose Israel, presumably to salvation, and left the vast majority of the people in the world ignorant of Him but cannot accept that God has elected some Gentiles to salvation also?

Repeating:

1 Kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

 

Not really! As I told Icon I temporarily yielded to temptation. I wanted to make certain remarks about Obama on the Politics Forum and then got carried away!

 

....guerilla tactics eh? Jump in and strike when the irony is hot and then run for cover for another 2-3 months....

 

I disagree. I believe Babylon in Revelation is the apostate church.

 

Frankly, I don't care what they taught. I believe what I have learned through my own study. They espouse a "parenthesis" I do not see in Scripture, but that doesn't negate my believe in dispensational theology. The difference is in the description, not in the viewpoint.

Who said this? A man? Or God? Joshua observed a little of this before his death, but he also foresaw a day when the temporary and secondary fulfillments would appear to be negated.

Joshua 23, NASB
14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
15 "It shall come about that just as all the good words which the LORD your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you."​

And yet Israel was restored after those destructions and captivities. But the land has never been fully occupied. You cannot dispute that, so either God is a liar, or God has further plans for Israel, and anyone who studies closely will see that the latter is true.

Oh, I so love appears to "believing Scripture," as though someone holding an opposing view does not. And your Scripture citations appeal to me to be convicted by this ...

... when the reality is, the biblical passages regarding the future of Israel are not talking of salvation to eternal life, but only to a renewed opportunity for such salvation to all of those of Israel who have not come to know Christ as Savior and Lord by the end of the Tribulation. That is the fallacy of reasoning when it comes to attempts to meld the two covenants.

Those Jews who come to know Christ as Savior and Lord before the Tribulation's end are not fulfilling the covenant with Israel through Abram. They are fulfilling the covenant with all men through Jesus Christ. Isaiah writes clearly of the future after the Tribulation and during the Thousand Year Reign.

Isaiah 65
9 "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.
10 "Sharon will be a pasture land for flocks, And the valley of Achor a resting place for herds, For My people who seek Me.
11 "But you who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who set a table for Fortune, And who fill cups with mixed wine for Destiny,
12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."
13 Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, My servants will eat, but you will be hungry. Behold, My servants will drink, but you will be thirsty. Behold, My servants will 34rejoice, but you will be put to shame.
14 "Behold, My servants will shout joyfully with a glad heart, But you will cry out with a heavy heart, And you will wail with a broken spirit.
15 "You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, And the Lord GOD will slay you. But My servants will be called by another name.
16 "Because he who is blessed in the earth Will be blessed by the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Will swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My sight!
17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18 "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.
19 "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does 47not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
21 "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will 56answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. ​

"I will bring forth offspring from Jacob ... "

Is that the church? No.
Is that the Gentiles? No.
Is that anyone other than Israel. No.

And has any of this prophecy yet come to pass? No.

Only those who refuse to see Israel as yet to be raised up as a nation, as the promised ruler of the world, will see anything other than Israel in Isaiah's prophecy.

God is not done with Israel.

 

Yeah, I know, you disagree....

 

Dispensational theology was developed by those who believe the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, is a "parenthesis" in God's program for Israel. That is beyond dispute, but then dispensational doctrine is erroneous. Furthermore Scripture teaches that God deals with people through Covenants, not dispensations.

I believe all Scripture is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. Don't you?

God has further plans for the elect of Israel just as He has for all the elect!



Joshua 23:14, NASB
Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.

You may disagree with Scripture, and you obviously do since you dispute the Word of God as spoken by both Solomon and Joshua, but I do not.

You clearly reject the "face value or plain interpretation" [as dispensationalists like to say] of 1 Kings 8:56 and Joshua 23:14. The language used by Solomon and Joshua is certainly not symbolic.

Those of Israel have the same opportunity to respond to the Gospel as any others. The elect will. In fact I knew a lovely young woman who did respond and has now gone to be with her Savior!

Genesis 13:14, 15
14. And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15. For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

When the dispensationalist can explain how "for ever" got cut to 1000 years then perhaps they will be able to defend Darby and Scofield.

I concede that verses 11-15a refer to Israel. In 15 we are also told: But My servants will be called by another name.

Is Israel called by another name? Not according to dispensationalism! So who are these servants? The Church.

I call your attention to verse 17 above:

17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Now consider what we are told in the inerrant Word of God in the Book of Revelation!

Revelation 21:1-8
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The latter part of the passage you present from Isaiah is obviously not talking about Israel!

 

This is a rather odd conclusion. Comparing covenants with dispensations is erroneous itself. No one beleives God deals with people through dispensations. Maybe you do not know what the word means.

 

No one?
You just dismiss John MacArthur as a quack then?
Hmmmm.

 

O/R ...

You can find numerous Old Testament passages that purport to prove God is "finished" with Israel, but the reality is He has not fulfilled His promise to Abram because Israel has never fully occupied the land which He gave them "from the Great River in Egypt ... to the Euphrates." They will yet hold that land. It isn't ours as the church, it isn't the Palestinians, it is Israel's. It is grave error to think God is no longer covenantally committed to Israel and that Christians have replaced Israel as God's covenant people. This is known as replacement theology, even though when that term is used, people vehemently deny it applies to them.

In the following passage, bold and italicized wording to is add emphasis ...

Romans 11, NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation --that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. ​

Only a partial hardening has occurred. Salvation comes to the nation God used as a type for all mankind, also through Christ, but available only to Israel after the Tribulation, as the Isaiah 65:9-24 passage I quoted earlier proves. The promises God made to Abram are irrevocable, and that includes "moving them" to another people. God is not a man that He should lie.

 

That is not what the father of dispensationalism in this country says!

What Is a Dispensation?
Chapter 2 of "Dispensationalism"
Charles C. Ryrie
There is no more primary problem in the whole matter of dispensationalism than that of definition. By this is meant not simply arriving at a single sentence definition of the word but also formulating a definition/description of the concept. This will require an examination of the scriptural use of the word, a comparison of the word dispensation with related words such as age, a study of the use of the word in church history and some observations concerning the characteristics and number of the dispensations.

To say that there is a great lack of clear thinking on this matter of definition is an understatement. Both dispensationalists and nondispensationalists are often guilty of lack of clarity. Many from both groups are satisfied to use the well-known definition that appears in the notes of the original Scofield Reference Bible: "A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture."​

http://www.biblecentre.org/topics/ccr_2_dispensationalism.htm

 

The DELIVERER came out of Zion 2000 years ago!


The passage you quoted from Isaiah proves no such thing! And you still have not explained how for ever became 1000 years!

Are you claiming that dispensationalism teaches that no one but Jews/Israelites will be saved in the so-called millennium.

 

Romans 11:26-29 is a wonderful passage to prove the very opposite of what you contend. Please consider this post I wrote on the topic. (No sense reinventing the wheel):
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=67483

 

Josh. 41:23
So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.

God is not a man that He should lie.

 

Read your post and appreciate your thoughts. Copied it so I can hopefully study it some more as there seems to be much meat there.

Frankly I have never spent that much time on the issue, perhaps because I have never interpreted the passage "All Israel will be Saved" to mean what the dispensationalists teach. I believe that "all Israel" simply means all those redeemed by Jesus Christ throughout time.

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

So what is your problem. Do you not agree that God dealt differently with Adam than he deals with you; that he was tested in a different way than you are; that the revelation he received was received was received in a different way than you do?
Do you have a problem with that?