Who is the "he?" not Jesus, correct?
And Jesus right now is in His position of being the High priest, as he no longer is the suffering servant position, and still awaits to be the King over all the earth!
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Who Reigns
- Thread starter OldRegular
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Who is the "he?" not Jesus, correct?
And Jesus right now is in His position of being the High priest, as he no longer is the suffering servant position, and still awaits to be the King over all the earth!
He is always sovereign, but His perfect Will is not being done upon the Earth until the Second coming of Christ....
have all nations got rid of their weapons yet, or all nations come to God as only God?
Don't think islam got that message yet, do you?
The issue is not about God reigning over all - as he does that full time all the time from creation to new creation.
The issue is the manifestation of His reign. He reigns now from heaven but that is not manifest on earth. The only manifest reign on earth is the reign of man. Man has manifest empires, kingdoms, capitals and thrones. God has no manifest empire, kingdoms, capitals and thrones on earth.
The point of Christ's return is to usher in the MANIFEST reign of Christ ON EARTH over the manifest kings and kingdoms of this world. When Christ comes, he will have a MANIFEST reign on a MANIFEST throne from a manifest capital ON EARTH (Jerusalem) over a MANIFEST realm (earth) and that MANIFEST capital will be in the MANIFEST nation (Israel). The resurrected and raptured saints from Genesis to the Second Advent will be existing in the New Jerusalem until this MANIFEST kingdom on earth is concluded and a new heaven and earth are ushered in (Rev. 21-22:3).
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that denying the reign of God is denying He Sovereign Nature. I must confess that I do not understand why certain things happen but God reigns!
It may be one thing to deny His sovereign reign, and quite another thing to deny the manifest means of that reign.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't worry about it. When Jesus Christ returns HE will set things right:
1 Resurrect all the dead giving those who died in Jesus Christ an incorruptible body [John 5:28, 29; 1 Cor. 15:51-54].
2. Give the living believer an incorruptible body [1 Cor. 15:51-54].
3. Conduct the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11-15]
4. Cast Satan and those who belong to him in the Lake of Fire.
5. Create the New Heavens and Earth where the Saints will live eternally with God [Revelation 21, 22].
preacher4truth
Active Member
Interesting, it looks as if some believe 'the old devil' took over the earth and God had to scramble and come up with a plan to become Sovereign God again and then take back control. That simply would make him not God, yet many worship said caricature. Kenneth Copeland and other dissident teachers would be proud of these.
Perhaps quarterlies should be thrown out in favor of sound doctrine? Might as well throw a 'few' teachers/preachers/missionaries/ex-missionaries/Bible college 'professors' in the toss as well. :smilewinkgrin:
Perhaps quarterlies should be thrown out in favor of sound doctrine? Might as well throw a 'few' teachers/preachers/missionaries/ex-missionaries/Bible college 'professors' in the toss as well. :smilewinkgrin:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Satan is "the god of this world," the "prince of the power of the air," the "spirit that now works in the children of disobedience."
It seems to me like you should pick up your Bible, study it, and learn some sound doctrine.
The Scripture plainly teaches that for the time being God is allowing Satan to "reign" on this earth. That is in spite of your objections. As the sovereign Lord he does not need your permission.
He knew of this plan before the foundation of the world. He didn't have to scramble to do anything. Your view of God is very weak indeed.
How does God having a plan, and then carrying out that plan to its fullest and minutest detail take away from His sovereignty or deity??
Go and study the Scriptures.
I trust you are speaking of yourself.
preacher4truth
Active Member
You misunderstand those biblical statements, and many more.
Which means God is Sovereign, a concept you cannot understand being IFB. Now, I've never objected to any of this, so your accusations are silly and unfounded. BTW, satan is not 'reigning' God is. Show a passage that says satan is reigning, which by definition would mean he is doing so over God Himself. Go ahead, twist a passage for us and prove it.
I was speaking of your view, not mine. You're so close, but so far away from truth but you cannot see even this. :thumbs:
You don't even believe your last statement, as you believe satan is reigning and Christ? Interceding yet not reigning as to reign means to be even above God, it means of the highest rule.
BTW I was speaking of you and those of your ilk purposely so your 'trust' is misplaced. :thumbs:
You misunderstand those biblical statements, and many more.
Which means God is Sovereign, a concept you cannot understand being IFB. Now, I've never objected to any of this, so your accusations are silly and unfounded. BTW, satan is not 'reigning' God is. Show a passage that says satan is reigning, which by definition would mean he is doing so over God Himself. Go ahead, twist a passage for us and prove it.
I was speaking of your view, not mine. You're so close, but so far away from truth but you cannot see even this. :thumbs:
You don't even believe your last statement, as you believe satan is reigning and Christ? Interceding yet not reigning as to reign means to be even above God, it means of the highest rule.
BTW I was speaking of you and those of your ilk purposely so your 'trust' is misplaced. :thumbs:
Jesus is the Soveregn lord over all His creation, but he also has chosen to allow the devil his leash as part of his plans/purposes, correct?
And the reigning as God intends upon this earth is when ALL other Kingdoms are crushed, and the kingdom of his Son is put in place over all the earth...
has THAT happened as of yet?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Won't happen on this earth but the New Earth!
On another thread I first brought those Scriptures to attention.
On this thread Dr. Bob brought them to everyone's attention and explained them. Since then, I have referred to them every once and a while like just now.
The odd thing is that non of the Calvinists on the board will take the time to explain them. Like you--just the denial and "you don't know the meaning" mantra. You can't even explain how these verses fit into the grand scheme of things, because you don't know what that grand scheme is.
I have already given you plenty of Scripture. The very fact that he is "the god of this world," implies that he is the one who is ruling or reigning, and not Christ. The other Scriptures provided by Dr. Bob say the same thing. You would do well to read his post carefully.
However, since you can't explain scripture it turns out that your position is weak, doesn't it? You are totally unable to reconcile Scripture with Scripture.
Take a look at the definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reign
In no way is "reign" confined to describe just the Lord Jesus Christ, or the triune Godhead. It can describe many people, principalities, etc.
For example, "The reign of terror imposed by Nero was atrocious."
But your "one word = one meaning definition" concept of hermeneutics is in error and brings the interpretation of the Bible into error. It leads to false doctrine, which is where you are headed.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
How is it that dispensationalists talk continually about the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ during a Jewish millennial and then hammer those who reject that doctrine for not believing God's promises to Israel and Abraham? For example:
Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Joshua 14:9 And Moses sware on that day, saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children’s for ever, because thou hast wholly followed the LORD my God.
2 Chronicles 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?
Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
It appears then that dispensationalists take it upon them selves to tweak God's promises a little. Really, compared to for ever, or eternity, is 1000 years any more than zero years? I believe compared to infinity 1000 and zero are the same. Perhaps some good mathematician on board can provide the answer!
Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Joshua 14:9 And Moses sware on that day, saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children’s for ever, because thou hast wholly followed the LORD my God.
2 Chronicles 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?
Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
It appears then that dispensationalists take it upon them selves to tweak God's promises a little. Really, compared to for ever, or eternity, is 1000 years any more than zero years? I believe compared to infinity 1000 and zero are the same. Perhaps some good mathematician on board can provide the answer!
It is evident to see that Israel is presently contained in a small parcel of land only a fraction of which was promised to her. The promise above has not, nor ever did come to fruition. It is still in the future. The Lord will give all that land to Israel, but He has not chosen to do so yet.
the bible states that Jesus will reign over the kingdom here on the earth, and THEN he gives it all up to the father, THEN a new earth, correct?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No! But do you ever think you should support your claims with Scripture?
convicted1
Guest
To say Christ is interceeding yet not reigning is an astronomical error, imo. To say Christ is the High Priest...and He is...is limitting the scope of His reigning over us now.
• We read where He is God, but also the Son of God.
• We read where He is King of Kings, and Lord of lords, but also the Prince of peace.
• We read where He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but also a Lion of the
tribe of Judah.
So to focus solely on one aspect of His dealings isn't a good thing. He is reigning, ruling, interceeding, over the whole earth...
• We read where He is God, but also the Son of God.
• We read where He is King of Kings, and Lord of lords, but also the Prince of peace.
• We read where He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but also a Lion of the
tribe of Judah.
So to focus solely on one aspect of His dealings isn't a good thing. He is reigning, ruling, interceeding, over the whole earth...
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You did Good Brother!
wrong....
here is the only passage that speaks of the Kingdom being delivered up to the Father.....it does not mention the earth anywhere.....
can you supply such a verse?
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
opps O.R.beat me to it....lol
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