Who Reigns

[DHK]

wrong....

here is the only passage that speaks of the Kingdom being delivered up to the Father.....it does not mention the earth anywhere.....

can you supply such a verse?

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is the firstfruits. He arose first. He alone is the only one who has risen from the dead thus far.
Afterward they that are Christ's (His Bride--NT believers) will arise at his coming--the rapture.
--Then the Tribulation for seven years.
--And then comes a thousand years of His reign on earth
There is a gap here between verses 23 and 24

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then cometh the end. It happens after the thousand years, after the Great White Throne Judgment, after Satan has been defeated and the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:11-15)
Then comes the end. The Kingdom is the Father's. We pray: "Our Father who art in heaven...THY KINGDOM COME..."
It is the Father's Kingdom and will be delivered back to the Father after Christ has ruled over it for one thousand years.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

There will be one last uprising by Satan during the Millennium. The Great White Throne Judgment will take place. All enemies will be put under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Death is mentioned in Rev.20:11-15--Death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

opps O.R.beat me to it....lol

At this point the work of the Son will find ultimate completion in the glory of the Father. When God is all in all, the new creation will be consummated.
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

[convicted1]

You did Good Brother!

Jesus is our High Priest and our Gift that was laid upon an altar...see the cross.


He is our Redeemer, and He is also our Scapegoat, who bore our shame.


He is our Shepherd, and He is also our Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


He encompasses the whole earth, and yet, dwells within those who are His.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Christ is the firstfruits. He arose first. He alone is the only one who has risen from the dead thus far.

ok

Afterward they that are Christ's (His Bride--NT believers) will arise at his coming

on the last day....

-

the rapture.

on the last day

--Then the Tribulation for seven years.
--And then comes a thousand years of His reign on earth
There is a gap here between verses 23 and 24

only in dispensational thought....no where in rev 20 where it mentions 1000 yrs does it say or require a physical earthly reign...where does it say that in rev20?
where does it say there is a gap in 1cor15:23-24?

do you not see that you are inserting that here?

Then cometh the end. It happens after the thousand years,

the end happens after everything else ,yes.. that is why it is the end!...it does not help to clarify what is intended by the thousand yrs however.

after the Great White Throne Judgment, after Satan has been defeated and the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:11-15)

that fits both systems

Then comes the end. The Kingdom is the Father's. We pray: "Our Father who art in heaven...THY KINGDOM COME..."

The Kingdom comes as the gospel spreads...a missionary goes to the jungle makes disciples...the light of the Kingdom comes there.

It is the Father's Kingdom and will be delivered back to the Father after Christ has ruled over it for one thousand years.

yes.. depending on what that is.

 

[convicted1]

Christ is the firstfruits. He arose first. He alone is the only one who has risen from the dead thus far.

Matthew 27:50-53(YLT)

"And Jesus having again cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many."

Looks like there were some that came forth after He did. That was a resurrection right there.

There rest of your post I ignored. It is purely LaHayeism.....

 

[DHK]

Matthew 27:50-53(YLT)

"And Jesus having again cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many."

Looks like there were some that came forth after He did. That was a resurrection right there.

There rest of your post I ignored. It is purely LaHayeism.....

That was after Christ arose. The Scripture is silent on whether they, like Lazarus, "died again," and went back to the graves, or
were given glorified bodies and were a type of firstfruits of the harvest to come, that is the rapture. This is what MacArthur suggests.

I don't read LaHaye. However, I have read MacArthur even though he is a Calvinist. He lays it out quite well.

 

[convicted1]

That was after Christ arose. The Scripture is silent on whether they, like Lazarus, "died again," and went back to the graves, or
were given glorified bodies and were a type of firstfruits of the harvest to come, that is the rapture. This is what MacArthur suggests.

I don't read LaHaye. However, I have read MacArthur even though he is a Calvinist. He lays it out quite well.

I showed in a previous post that Matthew 25, John 5, and Revelation 20 all show the sheep and goats, both great and small<-----in Revelation 20, stood before Christ. There are no 1,007 years betwixts resurrections, imo.....

 

[OldRegular]

Icon.

Dispensationalists are big on inserting Gaps in Scripture. They insert an unlimited amount of time in Daniel 9:27 and then 1007 years in the passage from 1 Corinthians 15 you presented.

 

[Yeshua1]

I showed in a previous post that Matthew 25, John 5, and Revelation 20 all show the sheep and goats, both great and small<-----in Revelation 20, stood before Christ. There are no 1,007 years betwixts resurrections, imo.....

There was the First resurrection of the dead in christ at the rapture/Second Coming, THEN the Second Resurrection of the dead sinners, so how is there not a gap again?

 

[Yeshua1]

wrong....

here is the only passage that speaks of the Kingdom being delivered up to the Father.....it does not mention the earth anywhere.....

can you supply such a verse?

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

opps O.R.beat me to it....lol

He will also destroy all of the Kingdoms of this earth, and set up his Kingdom here on the earth, as all nations shall worship him, and there will be nore more wars...

When has that happened, when will it again?

The problem is that whne one spiritualises away all prophetic passages, there is confusion...

 

[OldRegular]

There was the First resurrection of the dead in christ at the rapture/Second Coming, THEN the Second Resurrection of the dead sinners, so how is there not a gap again?

You got Scripture to prove that? Otherwise we have to assume that is something out of the mind of some dispensationalist writer!

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon.

Dispensationalists are big on inserting Gaps in Scripture. They insert an unlimited amount of time in Daniel 9:27 and then 1007 years in the passage from 1 Corinthians 15 you presented.

At one time I went along with this as they all told me this was the truth.S.Lewis Johnson,and all of those men suggested this to me and they seemed to make sense.

it was not until I bumped into an Amillenial man at a bible study who stood his ground and responded scripturally to me that I began to re-read writings that offered another way to see it. Of course my first defense was that they were spiritualizing the texts....until isaw that they were not:laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

He will also destroy all of the Kingdoms of this earth, and set up his Kingdom here on the earth, as all nations shall worship him, and there will be nore more wars...

When has that happened, when will it again?

The problem is that whne one spiritualises away all prophetic passages, there is confusion...

Give me three examples of someone who spiritualizes verses away.....You made a claim,,,,support it with scripture that you think gets spiritualized away.

otherwise I can say....unless a person likes leaf spinach sauteed in garlic and onion they cannot be saved.

 

[OldRegular]

Give me three examples of someone who spiritualizes verses away.....You made a claim,,,,support it with scripture that you think gets spiritualized away.

otherwise I can say....unless a person likes leaf spinach sauteed in garlic and onion they cannot be saved.

There is not anything much better than sautéed onions, don't know about messing them up with spinach!

 

[DHK]

Give me three examples of someone who spiritualizes verses away.....You made a claim,,,,support it with scripture that you think gets spiritualized away.

otherwise I can say....unless a person likes leaf spinach sauteed in garlic and onion they cannot be saved.

The Amillennialliast spiritualizes much of Scripture to the extent that the Bible becomes meaningless. That has already been demonstrated on this thread and others.

First of all the Millennial Kingdom of one thousand years precisely does exist. You spiritualize or allegorize to be more precise, that away.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
--Words have meanings. Do you agree?
A thousand years means a thousand years. Six times is this phrase used here in these seven phrase. Three times it is used with the definite article "the thousand years," signifying a definite period of time which cannot be allegorized away and demolishes the amillennialist's point of view completely.

What else do you spiritualize or allegorize, or simply cannot harmonize with Scripture? How about the rapture? Let's demonstrate that with just two passages of Scripture:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--Note that these were words of comfort to the Thessalonian believers.
Why? Because the rapture was about to take place. It was (and still is) imminent.
What will happen?
In verse 15 the word "prevent" is an OE word meaning "precede." The word "asleep" means "those that have already died.
Those in Christ shall rise first (by a millisecond), and then we which are alive shall immediately after to meet the Lord in the clouds. His feet do not touch the ground at this time. He does not come for Israel at this time. This is comfort for the believers in Christ, not for Israel.
--And so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is to the believer, not Israel. It describes what happens to the believer, has nothing to do with the unsaved; nothing to do with the nation of Israel; deals only with the NT believer, and therefore was a comfort to the church at Thessalonica.

What you can't do is harmonize this account with the account given in Paul's second epistle which tells a different story--His Second Coming, when he comes for Israel to defeat the enemies of Israel; when he comes to this earth, and his feet will touch this earth.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
--This time He is accompanied with his mighty angels; previously he was not.
This time He comes with vengeance to punish those that know not God, that have rebelled against His gospel, that will be punished with eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.
This takes place well after the rapture of 1Thes. 4. It takes place after the Millennial Kingdom, over a thousand years later. It has nothing in common with the rapture, that which is described in 1Thes.4.
But you can't reconcile these two events.

OT. Passages you must spiritualize.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
--This will literally happen. Words have meaning. The only possible figurative language here is that the swords, spears, etc., are here referring to modern weaponry since John did not have that in his day. He could only describe what he had within the realm of his own vocabulary. The fact is that Christ will put down all of Israel's enemies, will rule with a rod of iron, and bring perfect peace to THIS world for a thousand years. Christ will rule from the throne of David, a literal rule. This is described in the above verses, but you will dismiss it won't you.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
--Another Scripture that you have already dismissed. It hasn't happened yet, but it will. That mountain will be split in two. That is where Jesus will come when he comes to put down the enemies of Israel, not when he comes in the rapture.

Come now, bring on the denial of Scripture, the allegorization, the spiritualization, the dismissal of it.

 

[OldRegular]

How is it that dispensationalists talk continually about the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ during a Jewish millennial and then hammer those who reject that doctrine for not believing God's promises to Israel and Abraham? For example:

Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Joshua 14:9 And Moses sware on that day, saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children’s for ever, because thou hast wholly followed the LORD my God.

2 Chronicles 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

It appears then that dispensationalists take it upon them selves to tweak God's promises a little. Really, compared to for ever, or eternity, is 1000 years any more than zero years? I believe compared to infinity 1000 and zero are the same. Perhaps some good mathematician on board can provide the answer!

As far as I am concerned until the dispensationalist explains how "for ever" gets reduced to 1000 years they are just blowing smoke!

 

[Iconoclast]

There is not anything much better than sautéed onions, don't know about messing them up with spinach!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Why wouldn't you add crumbled feta cheese ? Perhaps a little strawberry vinaigrette ? I mean, are we talking true salvation or not ?

 

[DHK]

As far as I am concerned until the dispensationalist explains how "for ever" gets reduced to 1000 years they are just blowing smoke!

You inability to reconcile scripture with scripture is well noted.
You can't deal with the Scripture I posted except to spirituralize or allegorize it. Yet you claimed you wouldn't, (or was that your buddy Icon?)
A thousand years means a thousand years years doesn't it? How many times does it say "thousand years" in Rev.20-1-7? Words do have meanings.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The Amillennialliast spiritualizes much of Scripture to the extent that the Bible becomes meaningless.

I used to say this also...but found it was not really true.

That has already been demonstrated on this thread and others.

Not really....

First of all the Millennial Kingdom of one thousand years precisely does exist. You spiritualize or allegorize to be more precise, that away.

No...both post and Amill see it as a symbol.....of a literal Period of time the duration of the gospel spreading worldwide....
Revelation 20:1-6

--Words have meanings. Do you agree?

I agree.....

A thousand years means a thousand years.

Certainly a 1000yrs can mean exactly that...or it can be an expression of a large number ....

ie, The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills.... is that all he owns? or can these words represent an idea?

one day with the lord is as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day...do you see this?

Six times is this phrase used here in these seven phrase. Three times it is used with the definite article "the thousand years," signifying a definite period of time which cannot be allegorized away and demolishes the amillennialist's point of view completely.

Not when you consider God's use of numbers symbolically in the parables for example........if you forgive a person 7 x70 times....are you done forgiving them?

What else do you spiritualize or allegorize, or simply cannot harmonize with Scripture?

When the HOLY SPIRIT has the Apostles interpret things using symbols...we need to follow.

How about the rapture?

great...lets take a look:thumbs:

Let's demonstrate that with just two passages of Scripture:

yes..i will demonstrate why you go away from what is written.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

ok

--Note that these were words of comfort to the Thessalonian believers.
Why? Because the rapture was about to take place. It was (and still is) imminent.

wrong...it was comfort because it explained what happens to the loved ones who left their physical bodies.......the rapture was not about to take place...it happens on the last day as Jesus explained in Jn6.....

What will happen?
In verse 15 the word "prevent" is an OE word meaning "precede." The word "asleep" means "those that have already died.
Those in Christ shall rise first (by a millisecond), and then we which are alive shall immediately after to meet the Lord in the clouds. His feet do not touch the ground at this time. He does not come for Israel at this time. This is comfort for the believers in Christ, not for Israel.

DHK...I know the premill teaching...but notice...none of that is taught here, you carry it into the passage...what I highlighted in blue is NOT in the passage the way you say it is...it corresponds nicely with the change of 1 cor15....in the twinkling of the eye.



--And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is to the believer, not Israel.

again the passage does not say this...you do however.

It describes what happens to the believer, has nothing to do with the unsaved; nothing to do with the nation of Israel; deals only with the NT believer, and therefore was a comfort to the church at Thessalonica.

This fragmentation of the word of god is why I left dispensationalism.

What you can't do is harmonize this account with the account given in Paul's second epistle which tells a different story--His Second Coming, when he comes for Israel to defeat the enemies of Israel; when he comes to this earth, and his feet will touch this earth.

2 Thessalonians 1:7
sure I can....

This takes place well after the rapture of 1Thes. 4. It takes place after the Millennial Kingdom, over a thousand years later.

you say this..scripture does not...no mention of 1000yr literal earthly kingdom

It has nothing in common with the rapture, that which is described in 1Thes.4.
But you can't reconcile these two events.

both can describe the last day...there is no other time text here.

OT. Passages you must spiritualize.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

-

I commented on this yesterday as it is happening progressively...right now..
It is the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem....Hebrews 12

notice Jesus is "speaking from Heaven "right now,vs25...to those who have received the Kingdom already and are working to see it grow worldwide.

-This will literally happen. Words have meaning.

yes they do, and the words in heb 12 have meaning also..isa 2 looked forward,as did joel 2-3 and both are happening right now.

The only possible figurative language here is that the swords, spears, etc., are here referring to modern weaponry since John did not have that in his day. He could only describe what he had within the realm of his own vocabulary.

classic premill response....or it could just be isa described implements of war are not needful in the Kingdom growth period, but the gospel is spiritual warfare

The fact is that Christ will put down all of Israel's enemies, will rule with a rod of iron, and bring perfect peace to THIS world for a thousand years. Christ will rule from the throne of David, a literal rule. This is described in the above verses, but you will dismiss it won't you.

I do not dismiss this ,just understand that psalm 110 describes him ruling in the midst of His enemies...he is doing exactly that ...right now literally from heaven.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
--Another Scripture that you have already dismissed. It hasn't happened yet, but it will. That mountain will be split in two. That is where Jesus will come when he comes to put down the enemies of Israel, not when he comes in the rapture.

Jesus has stood on the mount of Olives already and there was a division in Israel over Him.....

John 7:43
So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 9:16
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

John 10:19
There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Come now, bring on the denial of Scripture, the allegorization, the spiritualization, the dismissal of it.

no...just believe the nt writers....
this was also from zech;
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad


7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

there was a division in Israel, the elect remnant was divided from the covenant breakers

 

[kyredneck]

....unless a person likes leaf spinach sauteed in garlic and onion they cannot be saved.

There is not anything much better than sautéed onions, don't know about messing them up with spinach!

Why wouldn't you add crumbled feta cheese ? Perhaps a little strawberry vinaigrette ? I mean, are we talking true salvation or not ?

BC is right. One MUST include cheese w/vinaigrette along with the spinach, garlic, and onions or one cannot be saved. It is not necessary to cook the spinach though, and bleu cheese is also acceptable.