Who Reigns

[Bro. Curtis]

A true five-pointer. :saint:

 

[Iconoclast]

BC is right. One MUST include cheese w/vinaigrette along with the spinach, garlic, and onions or one cannot be saved. It is not necessary to cook the spinach though, and bleu cheese is also acceptable.

one thing is certain...you proved it by using just as much scripture as Y1:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

one thing is certain...you proved it by using just as much scripture as Y1:laugh::laugh::laugh:

If this is the type of exegesis you would give in telling someone about Christ it would be as a blind person leading another who is blind, and no one would ever come to Christ.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2133932&postcount=119

 

[DHK]

No...both post and Amill see it as a symbol.....of a literal Period of time the duration of the gospel spreading worldwide....
Revelation 20:1-6

You must deny Scripture to believe that. Six times it says one thousand years, or even the thousand years, being a very specific period of years leaving no room for any allegorization.

Certainly a 1000yrs can mean exactly that...or it can be an expression of a large number ....

Not when it is made so clear and definite:
1. by repetition--six times it is used.
2. the use of the definite article.
3. The context of the phrase. "when the thousand years are up," speaks of a definite period of time. It can't be any other way then a specific period of time.

ie, The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills.... is that all he owns? or can these words represent an idea?

What is the reference to that verse?
Is it in the Book of Psalms, a poetical book, perhaps?
Perhaps this is a genuine figure of speech. It is not repeated over and over again in such a serious context as in Revelation 20.

one day with the lord is as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day...do you see this?

Do you understand the word "simile?"
"AS" a thousand years, is not a thousand years. It is a simile, a comparison. It speaks of the timelessness of God by using a figure of speech called a simile. Most people recognize this immediately.

Not when you consider God's use of numbers symbolically in the parables for example........if you forgive a person 7 x70 times....are you done forgiving them?

Another figure of speech. It is called hyperbole. Christ didn't mean exactly 490. He meant as often as he was offended, forgive. This was definite hyperbole. Revelation 20 uses no such figure of speech. It uses the definite article "the thousand years."
You fail to prove your case.
You misrepresent the Scriptures. You butcher them, which in effect a denial of the Word of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you understand the word "simile?"
"AS" a thousand years, is not a thousand years. It is a simile, a comparison. It speaks of the timelessness of God by using a figure of speech called a simile. Most people recognize this immediately. Quote:

Another figure of speech. It is called hyperbole. Christ didn't mean exactly 490.

I see.

Revelation 20 uses no such figure of speech.

oh now this cannot be.....I am sure because you say so.

 

[OldRegular]

First of all the Millennial Kingdom of one thousand years precisely does exist. You spiritualize or allegorize to be more precise, that away.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
--Words have meanings. Do you agree?
A thousand years means a thousand years. Six times is this phrase used here in these seven phrase. Three times it is used with the definite article "the thousand years," signifying a definite period of time which cannot be allegorized away and demolishes the amillennialist's point of view completely.

My eleven trumps your 6!

1. Genesis 13:15. For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

2. Exodus 32:13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

3. Joshua 14:9. And Moses sware on that day, saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children’s for ever, because thou hast wholly followed the LORD my God.

4. 1 Chronicles 28:8. Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.

5. 2 Chronicles 20:7. Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

6. Ezra 9:12. Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.

7. Psalms 136:21. And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8. Isaiah 60:21. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

9. Jeremiah 7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

10. Jeremiah 25:5. They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

11. Ezekiel 37:25. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

When dispensationalists can explain how the FOR EVER became 1000 years then perhaps they will have something to say; otherwise they are just blowing smoke.

 

[OldRegular]

Of course the words for everare used in other ways in Scripture:

Jeremiah 17:1-4
1. The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;
2 Whilst their children remember their altars and their groves by the green trees upon the high hills.
3 O my mountain in the field, I will give thy substance and all thy treasures to the spoil, and thy high places for sin, throughout all thy borders.
4 And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

 

[DHK]

Of course the words for everare used in other ways in Scripture:

Jeremiah 17:1-4
1. The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;
2 Whilst their children remember their altars and their groves by the green trees upon the high hills.
3 O my mountain in the field, I will give thy substance and all thy treasures to the spoil, and thy high places for sin, throughout all thy borders.
4 And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

It is utter nonsense that you have posted here and in the last post.
You have simply demonstrated that you cannot harmonize scripture.
You don't understand how there can be a millennial kingdom, and how the Jews can also live for eternity? That is sad. Do you think that after 1,000 years God is going to take away their salvation? You don't believe in eternal security??

 

[OldRegular]

It is utter nonsense that you have posted here and in the last post.
You have simply demonstrated that you cannot harmonize scripture.
You don't understand how there can be a millennial kingdom, and how the Jews can also live for eternity? That is sad. Do you think that after 1,000 years God is going to take away their salvation? You don't believe in eternal security??

Stop your nonsensical ranting and harmonize the promise FOR EVER with 1000 years. Then perhaps you will have something to say that is worth reading!

 

[DHK]

Stop your nonsensical ranting and harmonize the promise FOR EVER with 1000 years. Then perhaps you will have something to say that is worth reading!

I just did. It was plain and simple. Yet you did not understand.
Here it is how it will work out:
1. They will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation of seven years begins.
2. God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked of this world for seven years.
3. The Lord will come for the nation of Israel, and defeat her enemies at the end of the Tribulation at the Battle of Armageddon.
"So then all Israel shall be saved."
4. Believing Israel now will enter into the Millennial Kingdom along with Christ and the glorified saints from Heaven.
Note that Israel and the Bride of Christ (NT believers) will co-exist together in the Millennium as Christ reigns over all.
5. When Christ makes a new earth and a new heaven, Israel, as well as we, will continue to live, forever and ever. First a thousand year millennium, and then after the Great White Throne Judgment, for all eternity.
It is really not difficult to understand.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[convicted1]

If it's a literal 1,000 years, then how does Daniel's literal 70 weeks become years?


It's just as broad as it is wide...

 

[convicted1]

Someone's gaining strength looking at their Tim LaHaye poster tacked up on their bedroom wall......

 

[OldRegular]

I just did. It was plain and simple. Yet you did not understand.
Here it is how it will work out:
1. They will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation of seven years begins.
2. God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked of this world for seven years.
3. The Lord will come for the nation of Israel, and defeat her enemies at the end of the Tribulation at the Battle of Armageddon.
"So then all Israel shall be saved."
4. Believing Israel now will enter into the Millennial Kingdom along with Christ and the glorified saints from Heaven.
Note that Israel and the Bride of Christ (NT believers) will co-exist together in the Millennium as Christ reigns over all.
5. When Christ makes a new earth and a new heaven, Israel, as well as we, will continue to live, forever and ever. First a thousand year millennium, and then after the Great White Throne Judgment, for all eternity.
It is really not difficult to understand.

The above is nonsense and harmonizes nothing. The Old Testament says Israel will live on the land FOR EVER not 1000 years. According to Revelation 20 the existing Heaven and earth fled away at the time of the White Throne Judgment, after the so-called millennium contrary to your point #5 above, so obviously Israel did not possess the land FOR EVER:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Furthermore, Chafer says:

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Jews and the Church. The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity. [Ryrie, Dispensationalism, page 39 ]

So just how are these earthly Jews going to live on an earth that does not exist anymore.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You present above Scripture picturing the Church the Bride of Jesus Christ and the New Jerusalem all in apocalyptic language. I must say that is very thoughtful of you DHK.

Revelation 21:9-11
9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Now tell us all: Just where are the earthly people, Israel?

 

[DHK]

If it's a literal 1,000 years, then how does Daniel's literal 70 weeks become years?


It's just as broad as it is wide...

The word "week" simply means "seven," or seventy "sevens" easily translated 490 years (just as it could be days, or months or years, whatever fits the context best.
How many weeks are there before one celebrates the "year of Jubilee"?

The seventieth week is a seven year period of Tribulation occurring right before the Millennium. One week of years, as prophesied.

The literal thousand years is obvious from Revelation 20, where thousand is mentioned six times in 7 verses and "the thousand" is mentioned 3 times indicating a very specific time period. It can't be trifled with.

 

[DHK]

The above is nonsense and harmonizes nothing. The Old Testament says Israel will live on the land FOR EVER not 1000 years. According to Revelation 20 the existing Heaven and earth fled away at the time of the White Throne Judgment, after the so-called millennium contrary to your point #5 above, so obviously Israel did not possess the land FOR EVER:[/quote]
Your inability to harmonize scripture is astounding.
If you really believe that then you don't believe the promise that Christ will destroy this earth with fire and create a new earth and a new heaven? Is that correct?

Furthermore, Chafer says:

You quote these men as if they are gods. I really don't care what they say. I get my teaching from the Bible. I have not read them. I study the Bible. And as TND has pointed out, your continual quotations from these sources instead of engaging in debate shows that you don't understand dispensationalism.

So just how are these earthly Jews going to live on an earth that does not exist anymore.

Did I say they would never exist anymore? No. I did not. They will exist forevermore. Christ came to redeem them. That is what the Battle of Armageddon was all about. It is presumed that they will be given glorified bodies at that time as John MacArthur suggests. Perhaps you should read one of your fellow Calvinists who seems to understand eschatology a bit more than you do.

Originally Posted by DHK
Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You present above Scripture picturing the Church the Bride of Jesus Christ and the New Jerusalem all in apocalyptic language. I must say that is very thoughtful of you DHK.

There is nothing apocalyptic here. It is description of the New Jerusalem with the names of both the twelve tribes of Jerusalem and the twelve Apostles written int the foundations of the building indicating that both will be there.

Revelation 21:9-11
9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Now tell us all: Just where are the earthly people, Israel?

I just did. You quoted from 21:9-11 and I quoted from 9:12-14. It is the exact same passage.

 

[OldRegular]

Your inability to harmonize scripture is astounding.

If you are so great at harmonizing Scripture then harmonize FOR EVER with the millennial reign.

If you really believe that then you don't believe the promise that Christ will destroy this earth with fire and create a new earth and a new heaven? Is that correct?

Then obviously the promise that God gave the land to Israel FOR EVER is not to be interpreted literally since you claim that God is going to destroy this present earth which does include the land HE promised to Israel FOR EVER.

You quote these men as if they are gods. I really don't care what they say. I get my teaching from the Bible. I have not read them. I study the Bible. And as TND has pointed out, your continual quotations from these sources instead of engaging in debate shows that you don't understand dispensationalism.

TND was apparently schooled the same way you were. Present one passage of Scripture that speaks of the dispensations you claim are Biblical. You can't because these dispensations are straight from the mind of Man, not God!

Did I say they would never exist anymore? No. I did not. They will exist forevermore. Christ came to redeem them. That is what the Battle of Armageddon was all about.

Jesus Christ died 2000 years ago to redeem those who will believe. Those who reject that redemption HE provided 2000 years ago will join Satan in the Lake of Fire.

It is presumed that they will be given glorified bodies at that time as John MacArthur suggests. Perhaps you should read one of your fellow Calvinists who seems to understand eschatology a bit more than you do.[/quote]MacArthur's eschatology is just as bad as yours!

There is nothing apocalyptic here. It is description of the New Jerusalem with the names of both the twelve tribes of Jerusalem and the twelve Apostles written int the foundations of the building indicating that both will be there.

The passage describing the New Jerusalem is sufficient proof, unless one has been brainwashed by dispensational error, that the New Testament Church is one with Spiritual Israel. Paul's discussion of the olive tree teaches the same thing.

[/SIZE][/B]I just did. You quoted from 21:9-11 and I quoted from 9:12-14. It is the exact same passage.

No Revelation 21:9-11 is not Revelation 9:12-14. However, the combined passage shows that the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, and the New Jerusalem are one and the same. The language describing the New Jerusalem is apparently beyond your comprehension. But one more time: The passage describing the New Jerusalem is sufficient proof, unless one has been brainwashed by dispensational error, that the New Testament Church is one with Spiritual Israel.

 

[OldRegular]

The word "week" simply means "seven," or seventy "sevens" easily translated 490 years (just as it could be days, or months or years, whatever fits the context best.
How many weeks are there before one celebrates the "year of Jubilee"?

The seventieth week is a seven year period of Tribulation occurring right before the Millennium. One week of years, as prophesied.

The literal thousand years is obvious from Revelation 20, where thousand is mentioned six times in 7 verses and "the thousand" is mentioned 3 times indicating a very specific time period. It can't be trifled with.

Strange! you make a big deal out of THE thousand saying that means a specific time period but you reject the use of the specific THE in John 5 28, 29!

28. Marvel not at this: for THE hour is coming, in the which all that are in THE graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto THE resurrection of damnation.

Well! perhaps not so strange since the correct understanding of that passage destroys dispensational doctrine, particularly their eschatology.

 

[RLBosley]

Wow. This conversation is going on? How hard is to just understand that Christ is King??

 

[OldRegular]

Wow. This conversation is going on? How hard is to just understand that Christ is King??

I guess it depends on how well some people understand and trust the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

No Revelation 21:9-11 is not Revelation 9:12-14. However, the combined passage shows that the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, and the New Jerusalem are one and the same. The language describing the New Jerusalem is apparently beyond your comprehension. But one more time: The passage describing the New Jerusalem is sufficient proof, unless one has been brainwashed by dispensational error, that the New Testament Church is one with Spiritual Israel.

My mistake for being hasty in writing down the reference and not checking it before posting.
Here is the entire passage:

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

It is the exact same passage in Revelation chapter 21.
You quoted the first three verses (9-11), and I quoted the last three (12-14).
Clear now?