Who Reigns

[DHK]

Strange! you make a big deal out of THE thousand saying that means a specific time period but you reject the use of the specific THE in John 5 28, 29!

28. Marvel not at this: for THE hour is coming, in the which all that are in THE graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto THE resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto THE resurrection of damnation.

Well! perhaps not so strange since the correct understanding of that passage destroys dispensational doctrine, particularly their eschatology.

Look it up in a Greek Lexicon or other reference book.
The phrase "the hour" simply means "the time." It does not refer to one specific hour. It does not confine the resurrection to one specific time. The time is coming when all shall hear his voice. There will be a resurrection for those that have done good--The resurrection of life,
and a resurrection for those who have done evil--the resurrection of damnation.

There is nothing in the grammar that says these will take place at the same time. The word "hour" means "time."
Going by your logic, the verse, "Now is the accepted time, NOW is the day of salvation," meant that one could only be saved at that very time that Paul wrote that epistle and at no other time. This is the logic you are following. But that is not the meaning.

 

[convicted1]

The word "week" simply means "seven," or seventy "sevens" easily translated 490 years (just as it could be days, or months or years, whatever fits the context best.
How many weeks are there before one celebrates the "year of Jubilee"?

The seventieth week is a seven year period of Tribulation occurring right before the Millennium. One week of years, as prophesied.

The literal thousand years is obvious from Revelation 20, where thousand is mentioned six times in 7 verses and "the thousand" is mentioned 3 times indicating a very specific time period. It can't be trifled with.

Soooo, weeks, as in 70, isn't literally weeks, but 1,000, as in years, is?


Keep looking at your poster......

 

[convicted1]

I showed in a previous post that Matthew 25, John 5, and Revelation 20 all show the sheep and goats, both great and small<-----in Revelation 20, stood before Christ. There are no 1,007 years betwixts resurrections, imo.....

*****bumparoo*****

 

[DHK]

Soooo, weeks, as in 70, isn't literally weeks, but 1,000, as in years, is?


Keep looking at your poster......

Daniel is in the OT; Revelation is in the NT, the last book of the Bible.
Do you really expect the contexts to be the same.
I expected someone as yourself to have a better grasp at hermeneutics than that.

 

[OldRegular]

The General Resurrection, Part 1

The most conclusive and certainly the most significant passage in all of Scripture teaching a general resurrection is that that spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage is very straightforward. It contains no figures of speech. The language is plain and straightforward in the truth it presents and it must be interpreted as such, or as Ryrie would say: ”taken at face value”.. The passage clearly and explicitly states the hour is coming. The subject, hour, is singular, not plural. The verb is singular, not plural. Therefore, Jesus Christ is explicitly teaching a general resurrection and judgment. However, the dispensationalist would have us believe that this passage teaches at least two different resurrections separated by a period of at least 1007 years; an interpretation which comes from those who supposedly insist on a strict literal interpretation of Scripture or taking Scripture at “face value”. The dispensationalist insistence that this passage teaches multiple resurrections is eisegesis[] at its worst. They are denying the truth of Scripture because it does not conform to their theology, a doctrine based on faulty interpretation of Scripture, and a theology that some claim is based on “new revelation”.

The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word wra [hora, pronounced ho'-rah] and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:
************
1 a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year

1a of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter

2 the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day

3 a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]

4 any definite time, point of time, moment.
*********8
Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’, obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

Matthew 26:40, KJV
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Matthew 27:45, KJV
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

Jesus Christ in the passage from the Gospel of John [5:28, 29] teaches that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. Again, it is clear that this passage is explicitly teaching a general resurrection and judgment. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also affirm a general resurrection and judgment. I understand full well that the 20th chapter of the Book of Revelation speaks of a first resurrection, which implies a second. Keep in mind, however, that the language of Revelation is apocalyptic or highly symbolic, while the language in the passage from the Gospel of John is not, indicating that a strict literal understanding of the passage from John is necessary. However, I do believe in two resurrections, the first resurrection was unquestionably that of Jesus Christ. In Revelation 1:4, 5 [KJV] we read:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The Apostle Paul in his sermon before King Agrippa while imprisoned at Caesaera declared:

Acts 26:22,23, KJV
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

We see from the above Scripture that, in prophecy and in history, Jesus Christ was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, are those who have undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25; Ephesians 2:1-7], who are born again [John 3:3], who have been justified through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

The Apostle Peter in his second epistle to the Church sheds additional light on the events surrounding the return of Christ:

2 Peter 3:10-13, KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In this passage of Scripture, Peter is writing to Christians. What Peter describes must be interpreted as a single event in time. Readers of this passage are not told to look for the disappearance of the Church, to look again seven years later for the return of Christ, and to look again 1000 years later for the final defeat of Satan and the creation of a new heavens and earth; but they are told to look for day of the Lord or the day of God which will come as a thief in the night and in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The phrase come as a thief in the night should be understood as follows:

• A thief comes unexpectedly, not when the householder is expecting him.
• Similarly the Lord indicated that His return would be unexpected, teaching: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh [Matthew 24:44].

Note also that the phrase come as a thief in the night is generally understood, by all viewpoints, as the return of Christ in which, as the Apostle Paul wrote, the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [1 Thessalonians 4:16,17].

There are some who attempt to differentiate between the day of the Lord and the day of God. Note, however, that on the day of the Lord the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Note also that on the the day of God the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. It is obvious that the day of the Lord and the day of God are the same, particularly since God is LORD.

 

[OldRegular]

The General Resurrection, Part 2

The Apostle Paul in his defense before Felix, the Roman governor in Caesaera [Acts 24:10ff], also declares that there shall be a resurrection of both the just and unjust.

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

In the passage above speaks of a resurrection, singular, not plural, a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. According to the Apostle Paul there will be one general resurrection and judgment. That there will be a general judgment is also shown by the events depicted in the Book of Revelation following the sound of the seventh and last trumpet [Discussed in detail in Appendix C.2 and included here because of its significance.].

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

In Verse 18 above we read: thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. This passage clearly teaches a general judgment of both the just and the unjust after the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

It is true that in the passage from 1 Thessalonians Paul does say the dead in Christ shall rise first. However, he is writing to the Saints at Thessalonica who were concerned about the fate of those who died prior to the return of Jesus Christ. That the Apostle allays their concern is shown by examining the full passage concerning the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, KJV
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We see that Paul is simply teaching that Jesus Christ will bringing the souls of the deceased Saints with Him when He returns and that the bodies of dead believers shall be resurrected before live believers are changed. This passage says nothing about a ‘secret rapture’; rather we see that Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. That trump of God is the seventh and last trumpet as shown in the above passage from Revelation, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, and in Matthew 24:29-31. The fate of the unbeliever is irrelevant to Paul’s message of consolation to the believer.

Again, there is not one passage of Scripture which teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth prior to any ‘great tribulation’. The concept of the ‘secret rapture’ of the Church refutes the teaching of Jesus Christ concerning the triumph of the Church. When Jesus Christ announced the Church, He said:

Matthew 16:17-18, KJV
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus Christ will build His Church and the gates of hell or hades will not defeat it. Before His ascension Jesus Christ presented the ‘great commission’ saying:

Matthew 28:16-20, KJV
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

This passages teaches the triumph of the Church, not its removal in a secret rapture. Jesus Christ consistently teaches that His followers, the Church, will suffer tribulation on this earth. Nowhere does He teach that they would escape tribulation. In fact He encourages them with these words:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Paul writes in a similar vein to the Church at Rome.

Romans 8:35-37, KJV
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

The history of God’s people throughout the Bible is not that they will escape tribulation. Rather the history is one of suffering. If the history of God’s people is one of suffering it is also that God does not abandon His people but is with them during their suffering. Frequently, suffering of God’s people is the result of their own sin, but often the only explanation for their suffering is that God in His sovereign purpose allows it, even as Jesus Christ teaches His disciples in the following passage:

John 9:2,3, KJV
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[OldRegular]

The General Resurrection, Part 3

In summary Scriptural teaching on the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is:

*********************************************
• The Church, as witness to the salvation of God, will remain on earth until the return of Jesus Christ and will endure whatever tribulation God allows. That tribulation may increase in intensity as the end approaches.

• At a time known only to the Triune God, Jesus Christ will return in all the power and glory of the Godhead, bringing with Him the souls of the dead in Christ.

• On this Last Day there will be a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust, consistent with Biblical teachings that the dead in Christ shall rise first.

• The risen dead in Christ and the transformed believers will join the Lord Jesus Christ in the air where the union of the souls of the dead in Christ and their resurrected bodies will occur. The glory Church, the Church triumphant, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, will then accompany the Lord Jesus Christ to the new earth [Revelation 21:2].

• At this time the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:11-15] will occur.

• As the consequence of the judgment the true believers, the elect of God, will enjoy eternity in the new heavens and the new earth in the presence of the Triune God.

• As the further consequence of the judgment Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, forever separated from the glory of God.

********************************************

It is important to note that the implications of a general resurrection and judgment are not trivial in today’s theological climate.

A general resurrection and judgment means that there is no ‘secret rapture of the church’ prior to any period of ‘great tribulation’. The Church will remain on earth until they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Matthew 24:30, KJV] and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Revelation 1:7, KJV]. Whatever tribulation comes before that time the Church will endure just as Jesus Christ taught and just as the history of the Church bears witness. In fact Scripture teaches repeatedly that tribulation is the norm of life for the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Before presenting Walvoord’s remarks concerning this question it is worthwhile to consider the definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000.

The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot. Many posttribulationists, in an attempt to establish their own point of view, beg the question at the very beginning by assuming that the church includes saints of all ages. The concept that the church is distinct from Israel is a part of dispensational truth that distinguishes the work of God in the Old Testament under the Mosaic Law, the work of God in the present age as he calls out both Jews and Gentiles to form the church as the body of Christ, and the millennial kingdom in which the saints of all ages participate in various ways but maintain their individual and corporate identity. Hence, the church will be raptured or resurrected, and will reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom, but the saved of Israel as well as the saved of the Gentiles who are not part of the church will also be part of the millennial kingdom. Distinguishing the church from saints of other periods that precede or follow the present age is essential to a correct answer on the pretribulational issue. It is not too much to say that the doctrine of the church, or ecclesiology, determines this aspect of eschatology.

We see from the definition of the Church as presented in the Baptist Faith and Message and the remarks by Walvoord that the doctrine of a pretribulation rapture of the Church contradicts current Southern Baptist Doctrine as well as historic Baptist Doctrine.

 

[Van]

Do not worry DHK, the Calvinists have no answer so they claim the second coming has occurred and sidetrack the thread. These views are not mainline Calvinistic views, they are twaddle.

Returning to the actual topic, after more than 10 pages of sidestepping, Is Christ reigning right now from His throne in Heaven? No according to scripture, yes according to Calvinism.

Is Christ reigning right now in the hearts of the lost? No according to scripture, yes according to Calvinism.

In the kingdom of God His will is done, but His will is not done in the hearts of the lost, which are wicked.

Let the evasion of the actual topic begin anew. Perhaps we can discuss just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[convicted1]

I've never claimed His second coming has already occured, van...get your facts straight before posting such foolishness....

 

[preacher4truth]

Someone's gaining strength looking at their Tim LaHaye poster tacked up on their bedroom wall......

What??? You mean my John Darby poster is now obsolete? :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

What??? You mean my John Darby poster is now obsolete? :tear:

John Darby, John Darby you say! Could he be kin folk of John Nelson Darby, the grand puba of Dispensationalism?

 

[convicted1]

I showed in a previous post that Matthew 25, John 5, and Revelation 20 all show the sheep and goats, both great and small<-----in Revelation 20, stood before Christ. There are no 1,007 years betwixts resurrections, imo.....

*****bumparoo, part deux*****

Still waiting......

 

[Van]

I've never claimed His second coming has already occured, van...get your facts straight before posting such foolishness....

You never posted Iconoclasts claims were inconsistent with Calvinism. You did not object. I did not say each and every Calvinist said the second coming had come and gone. But some of "the Calvinists" did. My charge was valid. You again have slandered me. Go figure.

Returning to topic: Is Christ reigning from His throne in Heaven? Nope according to scripture, yes according to Calvinism
Is God reigning in the hearts of the lost? Nope according to scripture, yes according to Calvinism.