Featured Unbelievers in Churches

Sorry, I don't agree.

And that other James doesn't, either

 

M-kay... You realize you've completely changed the subject matter away from your OP, and away from the contents of the video clip. I can play too. Who are the brethren Jesus speaks about in Matthew 25:40? Gentiles who helped the Jews during the Tribulation? Or....?

 

Well Piper should know, he's right about everything:tongue3:

You sound like the "workers" more worried about pulling up the tares than caring for the wheat.

 

So they don't teach the gospel clear enough for the non elect to reject it.

 

First, that ignores the context that I quoted, and your "Nope" is woefully lacking in exegesis. :laugh:

Secondly, this ...

... is a miserable excuse for a commentary on the passage. John Gill and Matthew Henry both saw the passage as I do. The comment "This is somewhat surprising ... " should lead you to realize the commentators don't know what they're talking about. They missed the point. There is only one reason that Paul would have hope that the Corinthians see that he passes the test is because they are -- just as I said -- challenging his authority as a teacher and apostle. Your authors here even alluded to that concept in the opening sentence, and managed to derail their own rational thoughts.

Reference to "the faith" is not regarding whether or not they are true believers. They are. The entirety of the two letters to the church at Corinth gives us that indication, though they are decidedly off balance and not walking in the Spirit. When Paul came to the Church in Corinth the second time -- as he references in 2 Corinthians 13:1 -- he did not say to them, “Look, you are not living like Christians so let’s go back to that one moment in your life when you were first indwelt by the Holy Spirit and let’s see if you were sincere.”

He said this, “Test yourselves, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith.” He knows they are sincere. That is beyond question. It isn't a question of salvation as you erroneously try to make it. Salvation is by faith alone. It is a work of God. It is a grace upon grace upon grace. But the evidence of conversion is not just your examination of your sincerity at the moment of your conversion. It is the on going fruit in your life. By questioning Paul's authority, they were acting in the flesh of jealousy, anger and resentment. None of those, you might note, are "the fruit of the Spirit."

 

But do you recognize that it is God himself that has placed them in the membership of the church for special purpose (Mk. 3:13; Lk. 6:12 - Judas; 1 Cor. 11:19) for the maturing of the body???

 

Saved people come in all stages of spiritual growth. Their circumstantial and emotional experiences are varied. The bottom line for salvation is a CHANGED heart toward sin with a confession of "the truth of the gospel." Where there is no changed heart toward sin and/or where there is not "the truth of the gospel" there is no salvation. Where there is a changed heart toward sin with a confession of the "truth of the gospel" there is salvation regardless of how ignorant or what stage of spiritual growth they may or may not have arrived at.

The "truth of the Gospel" is a phrase found often in the book of Galations and has to do with the issue of the substitutionary satisfaction of the Law in the Person and works of Christ. Simply trusting in Christ alone as wholly sufficient for their total salvation. Remember, true salvation includes both a changed heart toward sin and a confession of "the truth of the Gospel" whether than one or the other.

 

God used unrighteous Pharaoh to accomplish His purpose (Rom. 9:17). He turned the evil of Joseph's brothers on its head and used it to "preserve the life of many people" (Gen. 50:20). But my post was not about how God uses the unrighteous for His purpose. My post was to refute the unbiblical notion, by the poster I quoted, that there are multitudes of unbelievers in churches, and we treat them as though they are unable to respond to the Gospel. Certainly God knows the number of those whom "He predestined [us] to adoption as son through Jesus Christ to Himself" (Eph. 1:5), but that is a knowledge that is withheld from us. We are to proclaim the Gospel to all and plead with them to believe its message.

Are you implying that we should seek to add unbelievers to the visible church?

 

God sets them in the church body on purpose by design for the maturing of the body. Jesus went up to pray seeking whom the Father wanted among his assembly of disciples who had been assemblying with him from the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22) to fill the church office of Apostle. The Father chose Judas, one who never was a true believer (Jn. 6:64) but a demon from the beginning WHO SIMPLY PROFESSED CHRIST and Jesus acknowledged that the Father gave him Judas in Jn. 17. Paul told the congregational body of baptized beleivers at Corinth that there "MUST" be those among them like Judas for the divine purpose to "prove" among them who were really of God (1 Cor. 11:19; 12:18).

"we" should not seek to place lost people in the congregational body of baptized believers. However, "God" purposely places such in the congregational body of believers (1 Cor. 12:18) for the practical maturing of the body.

 

I addressed this in my previous response and you obviously did not read what I wrote. I am not in the habit of repeating myself.

God can do whatever He chooses. The visible saints that make up a local church are considered to be just that - visible saints. If one of them is revealed to be an impostor then they are dealt with scripturally. Typically that is in the form of church discipline.

Honestly, I don't know what you're objecting to.

 

I am objecting to the unscriptural notion of a universal invisible church made up of all the elect from Genesis to Revelation. Neither the terms "universal" or "invisible" nor the doctrine is found in the scriptures. It confuses the kingdom of God with the church of God. The Church of God has no existence prior to its builder, foundation and first members, baptism in the Spirit which are all Post-first coming.

 

I am going to respond more fully to your post later this afternoon. But I am really surprised that you wrote what I bolded in this post. The term "Trinity" is not found in the Bible either, but would you deny that? I think you know better that to denigrate a doctrine just because it is defined using extra-biblical terms.

 

Is the Apostle paul and peter yalking about the same thing, when peter exhorted us to make sure that our election was true from God?

Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

2 peter 1:10 Nasb

 

There has been one called-out people of God from Adam through the end of this present age. This has always been on the basis of faith in God (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:3). Old Testament saints may not have had firsthand knowledge of the Christ, but their faith was in Him nonetheless. The elect of God, regardless of when, have been predestined from all eternity. Their salvation was wrought in Christ; even those who died prior to Christ's advent:

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him [emphasis mine].

Did the Father choose only those who would be in the New Testament Church, or did He choose all who He intended to be holy and blameless before Him (in Christ)? It's a rhetorical question, with the answer obviously being the latter proposition.

The visible church is simply a way of explaining of what the eye can see in regards to the physical construction of the local church. If a person professes faith in Christ, and does not display by their behavior an obvious contradiction of their profession, we accept them as members of the body of Christ. But the secret things belong to the Lord (Deut. 29:29). God looks on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7). He knows who is truly part of the flock, the elect. It's possible for even the most discerning of Christians to be fooled. This is why those that are truly saved are member of the invisible church; the church that cannot be seen with eyes, but that is known by God.

I am not just a Calvinist, but I am also subscribe to Baptist Covenant Theology, so naturally we are going to disagree on ecclesiology. I am content to let our disagreement stand.

 

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs: My view of the local church is as close to being the landmark position as you can be....without holding the landmark position.
I think they go beyond what is written, down playing the Spirit's work if I understand what they say, as well as elevating baptism beyond what is written.

 

So did the Church exist out in the wilderness then under the Exodus?