Does the Prescient View Deny God's Omniscience?

[franklinmonroe]

One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals. -- From www.gotquestions.org​

The above is just one example of a statement of the Prescient View. Basically, according to this view of Predestination God chooses the "elect" according to His foreknowledge of the individual's choice. Wouldn't you say that His foreknowledge is an aspect of His omniscience?

So, God would know if a person were "elect" when the person was a fully cognitive adult human being. God would also know when the same human being as an immature child. God would know if this person were "elect" even before the individual was born and incapable of making any kind of rational choice. God knows perfectly all things because He is All-Knowing.

Following this line of reasoning into Eternity Past, God would actually foreknow this person as either being "elect" or "non-elect" at/before/during His creation of that person's soul. It is impossible for God to NOT know something. And a created soul could not exist as both "elect" and "non-elect" in the mind of God anymore so than a soul could exist as neither. When God brings a person into existence He has already created that person as either one or the other. God would never conceive of any individual person in a way other than the way in which He did, in fact, create that person; otherwise, that would actually result in a 'different' person. And it doesn't matter how far back in Eternity you go, you can never place finite created souls before The Infinite Omniscient God.

It could be said that God brings "elect" and "non-elect" persons into existence (all the while knowing which is which) even before those souls have themselves had a single conscious thought.

If all the above is true, then His foreknowledge cannot be based upon a choice made by a person. That would require the absurd notion that a person could exist (in order to make a choice) and in the same way not exist in the mind of God. Logically, God cannot know AND not know; just as He cannot create a rock heavier than He can lift.

It seems to me that the Prescient View must actually deny Foreknowledge/Omniscience because it demands that God at some point does not know something about a person (the choice that they might potentially make).

 

[JamesL]

Both sides of the debate have altogether misunderstood Election, and misplaced the application. Much like arguing whether a bicycle has three wheels or four.

Election is not related to the beginning of the race (faith). It is related to the END of the race - endurance, maturity, sanctification. The end of these is glorification, or adoption as sons, which is to be counted a brother of Christ, and share His inheritance. To not be put to shame at His appearing (1John 2:28)

 

[Reformed]

franklinmonroe,

Good logic and a right read of scripture on the the doctrine of predestination and election. Neither can be separated from God's omniscience.

 

[Rippon]

You know, at first glance I thought you had said "Does the President's View Deny God's Omniscience.":laugh:

 

[Reformed]

You know, at first glance I thought you had said "Does the President's View Deny God's Omniscience.":laugh:

I believe the President would like to think so!

 

[InTheLight]

If all the above is true, then His foreknowledge cannot be based upon a choice made by a person. That would require the absurd notion that a person could exist (in order to make a choice) and in the same way not exist in the mind of God. Logically, God cannot know AND not know; just as He cannot create a rock heavier than He can lift.

It seems to me that the Prescient View must actually deny Foreknowledge/Omniscience because it demands that God at some point does not know something about a person (the choice that they might potentially make).​

It's simple. In our frame of reference, sequential time, it is a choice. To God, who exists outside of time, it's "already happened" and is known. NOT FOREKNOWN. KNOWN.​

 

[Inspector Javert]

Franklin....I am thrilled with your thoughtful O.P...but I think your conclusions are mistaken.

The above is just one example of a statement of the Prescient View. Basically, according to this view of Predestination God chooses the "elect" according to His foreknowledge of the individual's choice. Wouldn't you say that His foreknowledge is an aspect of His omniscience?

Yes, and everything up to this point I would affirm.

So, God would know if a person were "elect" when the person was a fully cognitive adult human being.

Why must they be a "fully cognitive adult human being" for God to know this?
I maintain that God could know before-hand...even before that human is created what decision they will make.

God would also know when the same human being as an immature child. God would know if this person were "elect" even before the individual was born and incapable of making any kind of rational choice. God knows perfectly all things because He is All-Knowing.

It seems to me, that you have already answered your own question here.....consider this thought you posed carefully (I agree with it). And I think you will realize how you have already denied the conclusion of your O.P.

Following this line of reasoning into Eternity Past, God would actually foreknow this person as either being "elect" or "non-elect" at/before/during His creation of that person's soul.

Agreed, if he can know that "At" or "BEFORE"...than there is no problem here.
I know of no reason any Theologian must commit themselves to the pre-existence of souls. If he knows PRIOR to their existence. Than there is no real problem.

It is impossible for God to NOT know something. And a created soul could not exist as both "elect" and "non-elect" in the mind of God anymore so than a soul could exist as neither.

Yes therefore, before even the "foundations of the world...before they EXIST...they are either one or the other.

When God brings a person into existence He has already created that person as either one or the other. God would never conceive of any individual person in a way other than the way in which He did, in fact, create that person; otherwise, that would actually result in a 'different' person. And it doesn't matter how far back in Eternity you go, you can never place finite created souls before The Infinite Omniscient God.

Yes, Yes, and Yes

It could be said that God brings "elect" and "non-elect" persons into existence (all the while knowing which is which) even before those souls have themselves had a single conscious thought.

And Yes....... This again answers your own objection in your own O.P. (I'll re-quote it later).

If all the above is true, then His foreknowledge cannot be based upon a choice made by a person.

AHA....Oh, yes it could....
at least, why couldn't it be?
They have yet to make that particular decision IN TIME. But why assume God doesn't know the result of that decision before it is indeed made?

Why assume the result of that decision isn't (or couldn't be) known by God before he even creates that person or actualizes the Universe? Let's suggest a syllogism for this:

B= "Before"
T= time of choosing

If God creates person A...that person will make choice A at time T
It is presently time B
God knows infallibly what any person will choose at time T before-hand at time B
God then (knowing what choice person A will make at time T) creates that person.

Therefore: God then knows at time B who is elect (namely person A) who will actually realize that decision at time T.

That would require the absurd notion that a person could exist (in order to make a choice) and in the same way not exist

I don't believe that a person must already EXIST for God to know what decision they will make at "Time B" prior to them actually making it at time "T".

in the mind of God.

A person doesn't "EXIST" in the mind of God....they are mere potentialities in the mind of God....I am quite sure that a Universe where Earth's moon consists of Green Cheese is a potential in the mind of God.....but no such Universe actually exists. It's only a potentiality. God's mere musing about a possible potentiality which he chooses NOT to create doesn't mean it exists. It means God has a vivid imagination.

It seems to me that the Prescient View must actually deny Foreknowledge/Omniscience because it demands that God at some point does not know something about a person (the choice that they might potentially make).

I think the Prescient View is entirely BASED upon the assumption that God knows exactly what you claim:

the choice that they might potentially make

God's knowledge of PRECISELY that is what the prescient view maintains.....It actually asserts that God knows precisely what choice they WILL make, not just which one they "Might" make.
Back to a statement in your own O.P....(you answered your own objection I think)

It could be said that God brings "elect" and "non-elect" persons into existence (all the while knowing which is which) even before those souls have themselves had a single conscious thought

I think you have answered your own objection Franklin!....

But, I appreciate your well thought out O.P!!! :wavey::thumbs:
You've put REAL thought into this. Blessings! :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

that view would also deny the real effects of the fall,as it would assume that sinners still have that capacity residing within them to make a freewill conscious choosing...

Also think that view is a way to still allow for the freedom of man to freely decide their eternal state, as one really does not wish to focus on God choosing us out beforehand, as that smacks against our sense of "fairness/right"

 

[Inspector Javert]

that view would also deny the real effects of the fall,as it would assume that sinners still have that capacity residing within them to make a freewill conscious choosing

...
It would not deny that.....
Not in any way....

One's view of the fall or Original Sin is completely irrelevant....
COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

Also think that view is a way to still allow for the freedom of man to freely decide their eternal state,

*sigh*
That view would be meaningful whether God directly makes choices For all humans and grants absolutely NONE of them any form of free-will whatsoever...
The model itself holds even if God is creating marionettes...
It also holds if he is creating beings with genuine Libertarian Free Will...
The only difference would be what God is choosing to do with those agents after he creates them.

One would be his foreknowledge of what HE WILL DO (pull certain strings on that marionette)

The other would be his foreknowledge of what THEY WILL DO (make a particular choice).

as one really does not wish to focus on God choosing us out beforehand, as that smacks against our sense of "fairness/right"

The view in the O.P. IS God "Choosing us out beforehand"....
It's EXACTLY THAT.

It's a different explanation of the mechanics of HOW God does so....
But it's the exact same thing.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Franklin....I am thrilled with your thoughtful O.P...but I think your conclusions are mistaken.

Inspector Javert, I am equally blessed to have your thoughtful response (but I still am hoping my conclusions are not mistaken). Allow me elaborate and let's see where it takes us. These are difficult concepts to express without getting extremely wordy and technical.

Why must they be a "fully cognitive adult human being" for God to know this?

They don't have to be. I was merely offering three stages in life showing that God knows people (and their status of election) at every stage, going back to the very earliest possible stage of Earthly life: birth/conception.

I know of no reason any Theologian must commit themselves to the pre-existence of souls.

I don't believe in the pre-existence of souls per se. What I was trying to communicate was the idea that God cannot 'create' a person without 'knowing' that person completely. I think it is not possible for God to 'know' a person and not ever actually 'create' that person. It would be purposeless; I just don't think God 'daydreams' like that.

So, by 'create' I mean to conceptualize or conceive in His mind (like a sculptor doing a masterpiece). By 'knowing' I mean realizing or actualizing that person. These are simultaneous thoughts/action by God. Since God resides outside time, this may occur in time simultaneously with the human reproduction process. Certainly, I don't know. But I it is my opinion that when God thought of me, I came into existence; I instantaneously became fully me. Contrary to the philospher's explanation of consciousness ("I think, therefore I am") I prefer that "God thought, therefore I am".

AHA ....Oh, yes it could....
at least, why couldn't it be?
They have yet to make that particular decision IN TIME. But why assume God doesn't know the result of that decision before it is indeed made?

My purpose for the entire OP was to explain my position on this very issue (and it seems I failed you). I think I now know why. I spent a lot of words stating how God knows people without explicitly tying His knowledge with their future choices. God knows everything, but God foreknows people. Please, let me try again in different words.

I would believe that even though an infant, for example, has not yet made any conscious decisions in time God already knows what that person's choices will be and the consequences. I agree that God does know the result of that decision before it is actually made on Earth and in Time.

What I was expressing by stating that God knows a person is more than that human being's height, weight, eye color. It is also to say that God knows that person's future pain, joy, and decisions. Are we not the result of our own choices? Yes, they are OUR choices. Of course, it is God that sets everything in motion for our lives. God decides what time in history we will be born; God choses our physical and cognitive limitations. God choses our parents, and so forth and so on. God may cause that other driver on the highway to cut you off, but it our choice how we react to these things. Including the Gospel.

But again, I would say that God controls everything leading to a person's conversion. God could put a person on a park bench at the vary same time a believer would be there to witness to him/her. God grants us the faith and repentance. I believe that God does everything short of verbally accepting the Gospel for us (which is only the outward sign). Naturally then, God would not put "elect" persons in situations where they would never have the opportunity to hear the preaching of the Gospel, which is the method He has ordained.

The Prescient View states God bases His choice of electing a person on that person's decision. In order for God to 'base' a choice of election on external information, is to say He didn't know it. That is not possible for an omniscient God. To say that God (internally) knew all along the person's decision is to deny God a choice. God could not righteously chose to "elect" a person that will decide to reject the Gospel; conversely, because of His Word He must "elect" the person that accepts the Gospel. God cannot be forced to do anything. But for argument sake alone, IF God could be forced to take a particular action, it would not be out of His grace but out of necessity.

If God creates person A...that person will make choice A at time T
It is presently time B
God knows infallibly what any person will choose at time T before-hand at time B
God then (knowing what choice person A will make at time T) creates that person.

The problem I see here is that you have God creating a person in the first line, and then again God creating the same person in the last line. Yes, I saw the "If" in the first line. In a sense, you have God knowing a choice before there is a person to make that choice. I would say that choices can't exist apart from the people that make them. My contention is that God cannot know the person (and thus about the person's choice) without actually causing that person to come into existence. Otherwise, God would have a bunch of 'concept' souls waiting around to become actual persons. But even if there is a delay between concept and actualization, the concept part would be already fixed.

God's knowledge of PRECISELY that is what the prescient view maintains.....It actually asserts that God knows precisely what choice they WILL make, not just which one they "Might" make.

Not completely. The Prescient View maintains that God bases His elective choice on His foreknowledge. Of course He knows. How could He not? God is omniscient! But God does place His decision on a foundation laid by a human's choice.

I hope this helps.

 

[Rippon]

A person doesn't "EXIST" in the mind of God....they are mere potentialities in the mind of God....

This may be a real shocker for you...but God doesn't think the way you do. This "potentialities" stuff is for the birds.

I am quite sure that a Universe where Earth's moon consists of Green Cheese is a potential in the mind of God.....but no such Universe actually exists. It's only a potentiality.

I am quite sure that you have totally lost it. Are you a fan of William Lane Craig, by any chance?

God's mere musing about a possible potentiality which he chooses NOT to create doesn't mean it exists. It means God has a vivid imagination.

The above is quite irreverent of you. God does not muse. And for you to say the last line is just plain awful.

Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB.

 

[Yeshua1]

The truth is that with original Sin, and effects of the fall, NO sinner can come to God any more thru just free will as Adam had!

And just because God determined who would get saved, does not make those His robots!

Or that any who stayed lost were going against their own will!

 

[Inspector Javert]

The truth is that with original Sin, and effects of the fall, NO sinner can come to God any more thru just free will as Adam had!

Sure...
But, what makes you say Adam "came to God" with "just" free will?

And just because God determined who would get saved, does not make those His robots!

Yes. No one is claiming that.

Or that any who stayed lost were going against their own will!

Right, all those who remain lost in their own sin do so in accordance with their own free will.

Every proposition you've expressed is Universally agreed to. You are 3 for 3.

 

[Inspector Javert]

This may be a real shocker for you...but God doesn't think the way you do. This "potentialities" stuff is for the birds.

I am quite sure that you have totally lost it. Are you a fan of William Lane Craig, by any chance?

The above is quite irreverent of you. God does not muse. And for you to say the last line is just plain awful.

Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB.

I'd conceivably be offended....but, these rants are not particularly coherent.

Sorry. I just don't know what you are saying other than:

"I'm Rippon, and I hate all non-Calvinists"
"I'm Rippon, and anyone who doesn't agree with me makes me want to vomit."
"I'm Rippon, and I wish to purge anyone who doesn't suckle at the teet of the same Theologians that I do."

I get it, you hate non-Calvinists......PFFFF.....what's new. :sleep:

 

[Reformed]

I'd conceivably be offended....but, these rants are not particularly coherent.

Sorry. I just don't know what you are saying other than:

"I'm Rippon, and I hate all non-Calvinists"
"I'm Rippon, and anyone who doesn't agree with me makes me want to vomit."
"I'm Rippon, and I wish to purge anyone who doesn't suckle at the teet of the same Theologians that I do."

I get it, you hate non-Calvinists......PFFFF.....what's new. :sleep:

Actually Rippon made some valid counter points, but you claim, "I just don't know what you are saying". Allow me to elucidate.

Do potentialities exist in the mind of God?

Does God have a vivid imagination?

Does God possess an imagination at all?

If God does possess an imagination, what implications does that have for His omniscience?

If God deals in potentialities He is not truly omniscient. In such a case God is reactive; having to wait (just like us) for circumstances to unfold in order to find out which potential will become reality.

 

[Iconoclast]

This may be a real shocker for you...but God doesn't think the way you do. This "potentialities" stuff is for the birds.

I am quite sure that you have totally lost it. Are you a fan of William Lane Craig, by any chance?

The above is quite irreverent of you. God does not muse. And for you to say the last line is just plain awful.

Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB.

Good post once again.
sadly you have seen the truth of this posters failed ideas...moving along the lines of the philosophical and away from the safe harbor of scripture.:thumbsup:

 

[Reformed]

moving along the lines of the philosophical and away from the safe harbor of scripture

We move away from scripture to our own harm. It leads to speculation and confusion instead of truth and clarity.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Actually Rippon made some valid counter points,

No, he really didn't he made meaningless criticisms.....he made mountains out of molehills and bickered about word-choice.

Do potentialities exist in the mind of God?

They don't "exist" anywhere....it's an abstraction....abstractions don't exist.

Does God possess an imagination at all?

He seems to have imagined this entire Universe and all that in it is, so, I'd say he does....and it is indeed "vivid".

If God does possess an imagination, what implications does that have for His omniscience?

None. You are (like Rippon) making a mountain out of a molehill. Is there some verse you are aware of which states "God has no imagination"?....Is there? If not, then you're simply piling-on.

If God deals in potentialities He is not truly omniscient.

Potentialities aren't something you "deal in"....and he's truly and perfectly omniscient.
I affirm it:
You affirm it:
Everyone on B.B. affirms it.
There's really nothing to argue about........
I think you guys are just bored.

In such a case God is reactive; having to wait (just like us) for circumstances to unfold in order to find out which potential will become reality.

Sure, if you say so

 

[Reformed]

They don't "exist" anywhere....it's an abstraction....abstractions don't exist.

You are playing a shell game here. Metaphysically potentialities do exist in the mind. Something that has potential is capable of becoming real. The converse is also true. It is capable of not becoming real. Man operates in the realm of potential, but not God.

He seems to have imagined this entire Universe and all that in it is, so, I'd say he does....and it is indeed "vivid".

He seems to? In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. We do not read where there was some period of undetermined time where God imagined anything. God does not need to imagine because He does not operate in the realm of potential. God operates in the realm of decree. God operates both in and outside of space and time.

God sees all things as happened, happening, and will happen. There is no potential and no need for God to imagine that which is always before Him.

None. You are (like Rippon) making a mountain out of a molehill. Is there some verse you are aware of which states "God has no imagination"?....Is there? If not, then you're simply piling-on.

I am using good and necessary inference about who God is as revealed in scripture. And if that means I lumped in with Rippon, well, I will accept that as a compliment.

 

[Benjamin]

Man operates in the realm of potential, but not God.

Such is impossible within the deterministic position concerning the Calvinist/Classical view of God's foreknowledge...

You can't logically have it (potential) both ways. Read my signature...