The Biblical Definition of "works"

[Hark]

The issue here is not whether those addressed are saved or not for Jesus says of them that they are "rich." The issue here is the fear of death for being faithful. Jesus is encouraging saved people to persevere in faithfulness in the face of threatened physical death. The first encouragement he gives is his own personal experience of facing and experiecing death and overcoming and now holding the keys of death and hades. In other words, I have been there and came out victoriously and so will you.

The second encouragement is the assurance they will not face the "second" death but only the first death - physical. The third encouragement is that faithfulness may require giving up physical life in this world but that faithfulness will obtain the "crown" of life or the highest reward in the next world.

There is no conditional clause, as "if" you overcome you will not suffer the second death but rather is the plain assertion it won't happen to them and therefore the worst that can be done to them is physical death.

Again, there is no conditional clauses but rather an factual assertion that the power of the second death does not concern them. However, it is not conditioned on being a martyr.

I do not believe the reward of not being touched by the second death has anything to do with martyrdom because I see the verses about overcoming was how Jesus will overcome for those that did not repent. Example:

Revelations 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This is for those abiding in Him as His disciples; then He addresses the reward of overcoming which following the pattern given by those other few verses about overcoming to each church, are directed towards Him as the Overcomer.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I see this as a reward for those saints left behind that are resurrected in coming out of the great tribulation as they will be made perfect by the Overcomer and made to sin no more in going out from God, and thus all the names given those left behind saints are for representing Him and the City of God to the world as they will be sent out as kings and priests in the world.

In the Old Testament there was a special person who entered a special place where access to manna was located. That special person was only the high priest and that special place was the holy of holies under the lid of the ark. However, all the other priests worked in God's house and yet did not have that privilege. Likewise, many children of God will not have that privilege as they dwell as "saved" on the outside due to failing to be faithful to God's revealed way of serve. However, the overcomers were given this special privilege of that special place - the new jerusalem.

That special Person is Christ and that is how I see those left behind saints having access as He will give them this hidden manna to eat just as He will give them a new name as no vessel unto dishonour would want to be associated with his former dishonourable name while serving the King of kings.

I may be wrong about this, because no man knows this name but himself, but then again, if no one knew that he was given a new name but himself, that would still fall under the category that no one knows this as his new name.

So I can still see that as not meaning that they actually live in that place of the City of God, but had received from Him hidden manna and a new name from the City of God.

Again, the Lord may sharpen me as we discuss further to bear more fruit...:godisgood:

To be continued....God be willing....

 

[Hark]

Notice in Revelation 21:24-25 in the new world to come the "saved' have "kings" that rule over them. This is beyond the millennial reign (Rev. 20). This beyond the Great White throne. This beyond the creation of the new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1-2) and after the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

Not so sure about that because Chapter 21 recaps the event of New Jerusalem coming down several times.

Revelations 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.....10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,....

Thus when I read the below verses, I see it being during the milleniel reign of Christ as only the saved; the new believers; are allowed access to the City.

Revelations 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There are THREE different books of the living found in the Scriptures. There is the book of PHYSICAL living or those "under the heaven" whose names are blotted out when they physically die. There is the book of the SPIRITUAL living recorded in the Lamb's book of Life whose names are NEVER blotted out but were written there from the foundation of the world.

Totally agree with you there. Yep. I see that, thanks to Jesus.

However, there is a third book of the living that every city had at the front gate that listed those who were living in that city. Every citizen had civil duty and if they could not perform their civil duty for some reason they would write "idios" by their name on the book of the living citizens on the gate. If they characteristically failed to do their civil duty they were kicked out of the city and their name was blotted out. Likewise, the book of the living in regard to the New Jerusalem is CONDITIONAL on works. There are "saved" living outside the gates just as there were people living outside the gates of cities.

I don't see that because of this:

Revelations 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life

True! Those who meet these conditions by their WORKS in faithfully overcoming the specific church problems will never be blotted out. However, the double negative is based on the stated condition not merely a unconditioned promise.

You are referring that towards works or overcoming specific church problems as per your point of view that you seem to be emphasizing here, but I just don't see that.

It is His work is the reason why He is not going to remove their names from the Book of Life. Even believers that err from the truth and had their faith overthown (2 Timothy 2:18 ) and no longer believe in Him, but although denied entrance when the Bridegroom comes ( 2 Timothy 2:11-12 ), He still abideth and therefore He cannot deny Himself in them still ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) which is why it is His work to lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ) as why His work is the reason that former believer's name is not blotted out of the Book of Life..

The New Jerusalem does not come down from heaven until AFTER the Great White seat Judgement (Rev. 21:1-2).

I understand your point of view here...but having followed chapter 20 for having given that White Throne Judgment....I have to believe that verse 4 is referring to the saved having access to the tree of life wherein they can die no more.

BTW This answers my question about those saints resurrected out of the great tribulation as I had made an assumption that because the second death has no power over them, then they could still die a physical death, but Revelations 21:4 and having access to the tree of life means they cannot.

Revelations 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

New Jerusalem coming down and giving a warning about the second death would lead me to believe a recap has happened here which is why I see this as before the White Throne Judgment given in Chapter 20.

There would be no need for restrictions on access to the City at the end of chapter 21 if the Great White Throne Judgment has taken place at the end of chapter 20, right? I believe it is a recap of the glorious event when the raptured saints return with Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation.

All saints rule with Christ but that does not mean there are some who sit on the right and left. For example, America is ruled by the people, but yet their are elected representatives and positions of authority that is not shared by every American citizen. Likewise, all saints rule with Christ in the new heavens and earth but not all share the same position of authority in that rule.

I still think that promise for overcoming is for those resurrected saints coming out of the great tribulation as they, more than anyone, can lead those from making the very iniquity that cause them to be left behind. They would desire those beneathe their charge to not make the same offenses they had made.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not so sure about that because Chapter 21 recaps the event of New Jerusalem coming down several times.

Revelations 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.....10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,....

I think we are straying from the original subject of this OP. My OP defined the nature of "works" to be those things "done in his own body" which fall under only two possible classifications (1) good or (2) bad. Those two classifications are the definitive results of God's standard of righteousness which is His own righteousness (Rom. 3:21) as revealed in the written Law of God, the human conscience which does "the work" of that law and the righteousness revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ (Rom. 2:14-15; 3:21-22).

The "good" produced in the saints originates from the "power" of the indwelling Spirit of God AND from the character of the regenerated new creation of the inward man (Rom. 7:21; Eph. 2:10). The "evil" works produced in saints originates from the fallen nature under the influence of temptations to think and do evil.

If we are going to discuss these other issues we need to open another thread as we are derailing the essential nature of this thread.

 

[Hark]

I think we are straying from the original subject of this OP.

I agree. Sorry for my participation in that steering away from the OP.

My OP defined the nature of "works" to be those things "done in his own body" which fall under only two possible classifications (1) good or (2) bad. Those two classifications are the definitive results of God's standard of righteousness which is His own righteousness (Rom. 3:21) as revealed in the written Law of God, the human conscience which does "the work" of that law and the righteousness revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ (Rom. 2:14-15; 3:21-22).

So then the human conscience which does the work of that law must cease from his own works as God did from His in order to obtain His righteousness by believing in Him.

The "good" produced in the saints originates from the "power" of the indwelling Spirit of God AND from the character of the regenerated new creation of the inward man (Rom. 7:21; Eph. 2:10). The "evil" works produced in saints originates from the fallen nature under the influence of temptations to think and do evil.

The evil of today is how evangelicals will resort to altar calls in placing a yoke of bondage on believers when coming to Christ or making Him Lord of their lives by making a commitment which is like a promise, to follow Christ which Paul said he would never do that in order to be fully preach the gospel. Christ has no confidence in men to follow Him and so therefore He did not ask them to make a promise to follow Him, but to deny themselves as able, pick up the cross of what He has done, and trust Him to help them follow Him.

The just shall live by faith... but if any speaks of their commitment to follow Him and thereby alluding to finishing by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit, then they live by their flesh in following Christ since His standards in His teachings are higher than the works of the law.

The same acknowledgement of our surrender that we cannot save ourselves has to be continued in how we are to follow Him; we cannot do it, and our faith is testifying that not only has He has saved us as our Saviour, but He is our Good Shepherd Whom has agreed to help us to follow Him by faith alone.

If we are going to discuss these other issues we need to open another thread as we are derailing the essential nature of this thread.

I'm content with leaving those sidelining topics where they are at. Thank you for your grace and understanding.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree. Sorry for my participation in that steering away from the OP.

Thank you for understanding, I enjoyed our discussion even though it was off course.

So then the human conscience which does the work of that law must cease from his own works as God did from His in order to obtain His righteousness by believing in Him.

yes, Paul calls this "repentance from dead works" - Heb. 6:1. In regeneration the conscious is satisfied by the gospel of Christ, thereby the accusing nature is silenced by the revelation of Christ's satisfaction of sin.

The evil of today is how evangelicals will resort to altar calls in placing a yoke of bondage on believers when coming to Christ or making Him Lord of their lives by making a commitment which is like a promise, to follow Christ which Paul said he would never do that in order to be fully preach the gospel. Christ has no confidence in men to follow Him and so therefore He did not ask them to make a promise to follow Him, but to deny themselves as able, pick up the cross of what He has done, and trust Him to help them follow Him.

Agreed! Pressure evangelism is filling more churches with unregenerated false professors than any tool Satan has. Our job is to simply preach the gospel, whereas, the job of the Holy Spirit is to produce repentance.

The just shall live by faith... but if any speaks of their commitment to follow Him and thereby alluding to finishing by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit, then they live by their flesh in following Christ since His standards in His teachings are higher than the works of the law.

Exactly!

The same acknowledgement of our surrender that we cannot save ourselves has to be continued in how we are to follow Him; we cannot do it, and our faith is testifying that not only has He has saved us as our Saviour, but He is our Good Shepherd Whom has agreed to help us to follow Him by faith alone.

What is begun by grace is continued and finished by grace (Heb. 12:2; Phillp. 1:6; 2:13; Jn. 6:37-39).

I'm content with leaving those sidelining topics where they are at. Thank you for your grace and understanding.

You are very welcome. It has been a pleasure to discuss issues with someone who is a gentleman.