Seventy Weeks Prophecy, no Gap, but a Solid Promise

[DHK]

Yes, let beameup read Luke's account and understand:

But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. Lu 21:20-23

None of the accounts harmonized with scripture (just your imagination), and made any sense at all.

Consider what the Scripture that you posted really says:

20 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24
--Take a a closer look at the word "generation." Take out your lexicons and see that it means more than just a 40 year period or so. The word is "genea," and can refer to a race, stock, family, breed, etc. This makes far more sense in the wider context when "this race of Jews shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Of course at that time they will turn to their Messiah, receive Him, and we will all be one in Christ.
--Why did Christ say: "Pray that your flight be not in winter, neither on a sabbath." In the time of Titus the statement makes no sense. The winter season was not so harsh. And on any sabbath they wouldn't really care if the armies of Titus were coming at them. They would flee anyway.
The statement in vs.21 still holds true to this day. There is still coming a Great Tribulation that the world has never seen, not from the beginning of the world to this day. The Jews didn't see it. The Jews of the Holocaust didn't see it. We haven't seen it, not yet.
But Jesus is talking in generalities. He is speaking to his disciples here. He is telling them the signs of his coming, and later he tells them not to be concerned with the coming of the kingdom, as if it wasn't their business. They were to be preach the gospel.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.[/FONT]
--The kingdom was not for this generation.

18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter.
19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

You are repeating the same verses from another gospel.
Will your errors repeated make your errors right? No, they are still errors.
1. The Great Tribulation is still coming. No man has seen what God has in store for the wrath of God on the world not the Jew. You are very confused on this point.

verse 19 in the KJV:
[FONT=&quot]Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[/FONT]
--This affliction is against the world and all its inhabitants. It is against the unsaved. It is not against the Jews nor the Christians. It is God's wrath poured out on the world. The previous verses were advice given to the Jews on how to escape some of this wrath during this time. It speaks of the Great Tribulation. God will keep his elect (the Jews) safe during this time. The bride will have been raptured. At the end of this time the Jews will be saved. That is why they must flee to Judea (not you or I).

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

See your misinterpretation. God never gathered the Jews to take vengeance on them. That just did not happen nor will it. In it he dispersed the Jews throughout the world. In the Great Tribulation He will save the Jews. The vengeance is taken out on all those that hate the Jews, the rest of the world, and in particular "those who were not friendly to my brethren," i.e., the goats--the nations gathered at the end of the Tribulation that were anti-semitic.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21[/quote]
The same error is always the same error--your error.
The distress is on the land. Read Revelation 6-19.
His wrath is upon the people of the world, not the Jews.
They, the ungodly of the world, shall fall by the sword. Both OT and NT attests to this fact.
The times of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled. Who rules in Jerusalem, that is, what is on the spot of the Temple? A Muslim Mosque--The Dome of the Rock!! That is not the Jews ruling; it is Islam!
This generation (this race) has not passed away. All these things have not yet been accomplished.

Has Christ come in his glory?
Have all the Jews been saved?
Has the gospel of the kingdom been preached to all the world?
Has the Temple been desecrated--the abomination of desolation taken place?
When did Israel flee to the hills of Judea?
And then, most of all, the Preterist denies one of the most important fact or events of the Bible. When did this take place?

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/FONT]
--It hasn't. It is a denial of the second coming.
This generation is the generation of the Jews.

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

Christ never came to slaughter his elect! He came to save them!
What a gross misinterpretation of Scripture. They will someday look to him.

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/FONT]

That just doesn't sink in to you, does it?

It doesn't sink in with you and that is the problem

 

[kyredneck]

....34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

--Take a a closer look at the word "generation." Take out your lexicons and see that it means more than just a 40 year period or so. The word is "genea," and can refer to a race, stock, family, breed, etc. This makes far more sense in the wider context when "this race of Jews shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.....

To force 'genea' to mean anything other than what is intended is doing violence to the scripture. That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT. Only minutes earlier in the temple had Christ prophesied again concerning that particular generation:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

Minutes later, Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.

Your gross misinterpretation of 'genea' destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:

21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

And Josephus certainly had nothing good to say of 'that generation':

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2

 

[DHK]

Your basing your entire interpretation of these passages on a disputed meaning of a Greek word? Amazing!
In doing so you are denying some of the most fundamental doctrines of historic Christianity such as the Second Coming of Christ! Wow!
Not only are you denying the Second Coming, you are saying that all these great prophetic events yet to take place, have already taken place! Unreal!

Do you know how incredible that sounds? To what extent of the imagination one has to go to in order to twist, extort, bend, allegorize, spiritualize, and even deny both history and Scriptural doctrine and events to believe what you believe. Absolutely incredible!!

 

[kyredneck]

Your basing your entire interpretation of these passages on a disputed meaning of a Greek word? Amazing!

There is no disputed meaning of 'genea', not in the least, as long as it's scripture that interprets scripture. The sensationalist Dispensationalists create the dispute from thin air simply by ignoring the continuity of scripture.

In doing so you are denying some of the most fundamental doctrines of historic Christianity such as the Second Coming of Christ! Wow!
Not only are you denying the Second Coming, you are saying that all these great prophetic events yet to take place, have already taken place! Unreal!

Show me even once where I have ever denied the second coming. Now you're fabricating things out of thin air. Are you setting the stage to give me yet another one of your bogus infractions?

Do you know how incredible that sounds? To what extent of the imagination one has to go to in order to twist, extort, bend, allegorize, spiritualize, and even deny both history and Scriptural doctrine and events to believe what you believe. Absolutely incredible!!

Show where I have twisted, extorted, bent, allegorized, spiritualized, and denied history. Everything I've posted is quite literal, historical, and scriptural.

 

[DHK]

There is no disputed meaning of 'genea', not in the least, as long as it's scripture that interprets scripture. The sensationalist Dispensationalists create the dispute from thin air simply by ignoring the continuity of scripture.

You leave out much of Scripture, even ignoring the events of Daniel and the entire book of Revelation. Do you know that in just two events described in Revelation, half of the the total population is wiped out.

Here is an interesting report from "theguardian" from yesterday:
www.theguardian.com

Global overpopulation would 'withstand war, disasters and disease'
National Academy of Sciences says even brutal world conflict or lethal pandemic would leave unsustainable human numbers.
The pace of population growth is so quick that even draconian restrictions of childbirth, pandemics or a third world war would still leave the world with too many people for the planet to sustain, according to a study....

"Global population has risen so fast over the past century that roughly 14% of all human beings that have ever existed are still alive today. That is a sobering statistic. ...
Even a worldwide one-child policy like China's implemented over the coming century, or catastrophic mortality events like global conflict or a disease pandemic, would still likely result in 5-10 billion people by 2100."

Just a scare tactic by a wild environmentalist, or perhaps another sign that Jesus is coming soon. You decide.

Show me even once where I have ever denied the second coming. Now you're fabricating things out of thin air. Are you setting the stage to give me yet another one of your bogus infractions?

I showed you both context and the events themselves.
He was speaking to his disciples in Matthew 24, and he said these words:

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.[/FONT]
--One may answer that this has been going on since the time of Cain. But just in the last few years their intensity has risen to a level such has never seen before.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[/FONT]
--Though Paul covered a lot of ground on three missionary journeys, the gospel was not preached in all the world. You misinterpret a verse to make it say so, but remember that afterward Thomas went to India, and Paul allegedly reached Spain (or at least that was his goal). At that time Spain was thought to be at the extremities of the world. But we know it was not.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand[/FONT].
--This has not happened. The Temple was destroyed not desecrated. It was not by the Antichrist, not by one who went and offered a sacrifice that would be an abomination to the Jews. It hasn't happened yet.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[/FONT]
--The tribulation is on the world; not on the disciples. Duh! That ought to be obvious. Why would he be bringing the wrath of God on the very disciples that he is talking to.
God's wrath is on this world; the ungodly of this world. It is on the unsaved in general, not on the Jews. He is not speaking of the Jews here. In fact he is warning the Jews how to protect themselves. It is the Jews that will be in and around Jerusalem at or near the end of the Tribulation, not the rest of the world. If you go through the Tribulation, will you be in Israel so that you can flee to Judea? How will this apply to the average person? It doesn't, nor has it happened yet.
They didn't flee to Judea's mountains. They were scattered over the world.
You have heard of "the dispersion" haven't you. They were scattered and were not brought together as a nation again until 1948.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[/FONT]
--This is what you are denying. In context it has already happened, but we both know it hasn't. Preterism is a denial of the Second Coming of Christ.
When did this happen? Where is it recorded? When were these signs seen: "as the lightning out of the east, and shines even unto the west..."

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/FONT]
--And if you dispute that the above remark wasn't a sign but only a simile, a figure of speech, perhaps. But here it is not. These are actual heavenly signs with the actual and physical coming of the Lord which cannot be denied.
Do you deny the Second Coming Kry?
When did ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN?
Again, when did Christ come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory?

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/FONT]
--The elect here are the Jews.
Romans 11: So, then all Israel shall be saved. This is at the end of the Tribulation when Israel, as a nation, shall be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.

And then:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.[/FONT]
--It has never happened. He was speaking to his disciples. Most of them went on to be missionaries to other lands. In fact we know what happened to most of them. They did not flee to the hills of Judea. That we know for sure. This "generation" is not the Apostles. It has a much wider and broader meaning then that. Context demands it. We don't interpret scripture according to your point of view.

Show where I have twisted, extorted, bent, allegorized, spiritualized, and denied history. Everything I've posted is quite literal, historical, and scriptural.

I just did.

 

[kyredneck]

.....[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[/FONT]
--Though Paul covered a lot of ground on three missionary journeys, the gospel was not preached in all the world. You misinterpret a verse to make it say so, but remember that afterward Thomas went to India, and Paul allegedly reached Spain (or at least that was his goal). At that time Spain was thought to be at the extremities of the world. But we know it was not.

I'm content to believe the scriptures (as you should be also) as stated here:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

and here:

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

and here:

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16:25-26

If the Spirit is content to state that the gospel HAS been preached throughout creation, who are you to contest that? Actually it was accomplished with the 'gospel bomb' of Pentecost.

As far as the rest, you post typical sensational Dispensational newspaper theology.

 

[DHK]

I'm content to believe the scriptures (as you should be also) as stated here:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

and here:

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

and here:

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16:25-26

If the Spirit is content to state that the gospel HAS been preached throughout creation, who are you to contest that? Actually it was accomplished with the 'gospel bomb' of Pentecost.

As far as the rest, you post typical sensational Dispensational newspaper theology.

Your reply is so predictable. I anticipated it before I finished my previous post. Near the beginning of it you will find these words:

--Though Paul covered a lot of ground on three missionary journeys, the gospel was not preached in all the world. You misinterpret a verse to make it say so, but remember that afterward Thomas went to India, and Paul allegedly reached Spain (or at least that was his goal). At that time Spain was thought to be at the extremities of the world. But we know it was not.

This was the reply I expected from you, but I gave you the explanation before you posted. You didn't read very carefully did you?
I find that Calvinists are not consistent, but rather hypocritical in their posts, especially in ones like this. You like words to mean only what you want them to mean when you want them to mean what suits you best without regard to any context whatsoever.

The words you have bolded for example: world, nation, etc.
In any other situation you would be limiting these words to a specific area or people:
the world of the elect,
the world of the non-elect,
the world of the Gentiles,
the world of the Jews, etc.

Never does a Calvinist want to define world as "the entire world,"
Except KRY, right here when it suits you best.

But as I took the time to explain, these people did not go into the entire world, and Paul did not use the word in that sense. You and I both know that.
If Paul never got to Spain, then he never got the gospel to that part of the world.
Tradition says that it was only Thomas (and maybe Barnabas [but unlikely]) that went to India. That shoots your argument down right there.
So, for example, when Paul writes to the Colossians:
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
--It is doubtful that he has any knowledge of Thomas's excursion into India, and doubtful that even at that time that the gospel had reached those parts of India that Thomas would have reached when he wrote Colossians.
There is a world out there. And it wasn't reached by the apostles or the early church. When speaking of your beloved Calvinism you love to limit the word. But in this conversation you give the word the widest possible scope you can. You are not consistent in your interpretation of the Word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

Your reply is so predictable.....

What's predictable here is your consistent relentless denial of scripture that makes Christ and the apostles and the prophets out to be liars.

 

[The Biblicist]

35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

Here the term "this generation" is placed in contrast to those that killed Abel as well as Zacariah" demonstrating it cannot possibly mean a "people" such as Jews in contrast to other peoples. It refers to a people living in a defined period of time. Matthew 24:15-29 explicitly maps out a specific period of time "when....then....these be the days......after those days...."

Jesus uses the common telescopic method used by all former prophets when describing a near destruction which is similar to the end of the world destruction. Jeremiah and Isaiah did it with the destruction of Jerusalem in the past, as well as the historical destruction of Babylon.

I am not a Pre-tribber or an a-millennialist or a post-millennialist. I am just giving an observation that is impartial to those in this argument.

 

[kyredneck]

..... it cannot possibly mean a "people" such as Jews in contrast to other peoples.....

Incredible. I don't know where to begin, I'll just pick up at v 25:

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men`s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[DHK]

What's predictable here is your consistent relentless denial of scripture that makes Christ and the apostles and the prophets out to be liars.

First, before you accuse me of anything, be specific and show me where and how I have made anyone out to be a liar.
Second, answer yes or no. Do you believe in the future Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[The Biblicist]

Incredible. I don't know where to begin, I'll just pick up at v 25:

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men`s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but inwardly ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Just look at the scriptures you have quoted and then look at the contrast of "generation" used in this context with those who previously killed all the prophets BEGINNING WITH ABEL and you can easily see that "this generation" refers to the PRESENT GENERATION or people living in the PRESENT TIME PERIOD with Jesus. Can't you see the scribes and pharisees DID NOT EXIST AT THE TIME of any of those killed from ABEL to Zechariah??????

This is a no brainer unless you have an agenda to force on scripture. They are the "sons" of Adam and it was CAIN - NOT THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES which killed Abel.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN A LITERAL VISIBLE YET FUTURE SECOND COMING BY CHRIST????

 

[kyredneck]

First, before you accuse me of anything, be specific and show me where and how I have made anyone out to be a liar....

You just denied every scripture that plainly states the gospel was preached under all creation before the NT was even completed. In doing that you've effectively called Paul a liar. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Second, answer yes or no. Do you believe in the future Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Yes or no, did the writer of Hebrews lie? Or has He that cometh tarried for two millennia?

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Yes or no, Did Christ lie? Or did they all standing there die before Christ came into His kingdom?

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Yes or no, did Christ lie? Or did the high Priest see Christ in the manner He said he would?

Incidently, Annas perished at Jerusalem 70AD.

 

[kyredneck]

..."this generation" refers to the PRESENT GENERATION or people living in the PRESENT TIME PERIOD with Jesus....

Yes, I know. What exactly have I posted to make you think I believed otherwise?

 

[DHK]

You just denied every scripture that plainly states the gospel was preached under all creation before the NT was even completed. In doing that you've effectively called Paul a liar. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I never denied anything. That is a baseless accusation with no evidence. I went through the Scriptures verse by verse showing how YOU misinterpreted each of them. You gave little if any response.
You protested at my definition of "generation" as you have with Biblicist.
You protested at my pointing out your inconsistent and hypocritical use of words like "world" or nation. If you want to lay the accusation at who redefines and denies scripture lay it at your own your own feet!

[FONT=&quot]John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/FONT]

Which "world" did Christ die for. Context dictates it was for the entire world that he died for. Do you agree?

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Yes or no, did the writer of Hebrews lie? Or has He that cometh tarried for two millennia?

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Yes or no, Did Christ lie? Or did they all standing there die before Christ came into His kingdom?

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Yes or no, did Christ lie? Or did the high Priest see Christ in the manner He said he would?

Incidently, Annas perished at Jerusalem 70AD.

Just answer the question:

Do you believe in a literal physical future return of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[The Biblicist]

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Yes or no, did the writer of Hebrews lie? Or has He that cometh tarried for two millennia?

You need to read Peter's explanation of the Divine view of "quickly" (2 Pet. 3:8). So, YES, it has been nearly 2000 years and Christ has not yet come.

28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Yes or no, Did Christ lie? Or did they all standing there die before Christ came into His kingdom?

Again, you need to read Peter's explanation of this (2 Pet. 1:17-19). They did see him coming in His kingdom on the Mount just after Christ said those words. So, Yes, the second coming is still future.

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Yes or no, did Christ lie? Or did the high Priest see Christ in the manner He said he would?

Christ explains this in Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

He was talking to his persecutors and future crucifiers, and they did not say "blessed is he that cometh" in A.D. 70.

Incidently, Annas perished at Jerusalem 70AD.

Incidently Annas nor any of those who crucified Christ and perished in Jerusalem in A.D. 70 were saying "Blessed is he that cometh"!!!!!

You are simply wrong, and you are pitting scripture against scripture which is the ocult method of escapism.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, I know. What exactly have I posted to make you think I believed otherwise?

Why did you respond "incredible" to my response then? In Matthew 24:15-29 he is specifying what generation will see these things by the specific time words and time frame. He is using the common ordinary prophetic telescopic method that takes the near destruction that will be seen by the present generation as the backdrop for the far, future ultimate application that occurs with the final generation living at the end of the world which witnesses the visible personal coming of Christ to earth from heaven which DID NOT OCCUR AT A.D 70 (Mt. 24:29-31).

In all such telescopic prophecies there is specific language that applies to both the near and far which cannot be restricted to just one or the other. That is the case here.

 

[The Biblicist]

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

That just doesn't sink in to you, does it?

What you are failing to acknowledge is that Matthew 24:5-14 describes common characteristics of all generation that are likened to "birth pangs" which increase with intensity as the final generation which actually sees all these things come to pass. Hence, the gospel was preached for the first time into all the world in the first generation but THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING of birth pangs and did not indicate the end at come, nor did the other things that occurred in the FIRST generation.

That generation saw the A.D. 70 destruction which was a LIMITED picture of the same kind that following generations would also see in their generations between the first and Second coming of Christ but were just the BIRTH PANGS of the future and final and greater tribulation and world wide destruction at the Second Coming.

Luke makes this clear in Luke 21:20-24 as he extends the first generation destruction and scattering of Jews into all FOLLOWING GENERATIONS until it climaxes in that time when hearts of men are failing WORLD WIDE just before the literal visible personal coming of Christ to earth when his foot touches earth.

So easy, so clear and yet those who cannot see either take it to one extreme and make A.D. 70 the climatic event or the other extreme and deny any first century application - BOTH ARE WRONG!

 

[kyredneck]

...28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Yes or no, did the writer of Hebrews lie? Or has He that cometh tarried for two millennia?

You need to read Peter's explanation of the Divine view of "quickly" (2 Pet. 3:8). So, YES, it has been nearly 2000 years and Christ has not yet come.

8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3

This doesn't change anything. The writer of Hebrews promised those Jewish Christians deliverance from their persecutions in just a very, very little while.

Again, you need to read Peter's explanation of this (2 Pet. 1:17-19). They did see him coming in His kingdom on the Mount just after Christ said those words. So, Yes, the second coming is still future.

Again, this doesn't change anything. Equating the transfiguration of chap 17 with Christ coming into His kingdom is an old lame dispy take on it.

Originally Posted by kyredneck
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Yes or no, did Christ lie? Or did the high Priest see Christ in the manner He said he would?

Christ explains this in Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And you say I'M pitting scripture against scripture?

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1

There's not a doubt in my mind the passage in Mt 26 is synonymous with this one, and that it indeed shortly came to pass as stated.

Incidently Annas nor any of those who crucified Christ and perished in Jerusalem in A.D. 70 were saying "Blessed is he that cometh"!!!!!

Do you not understand that His coming of 70 AD was this one?:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

 

[kyredneck]

What you are failing to acknowledge is that Matthew 24:5-14 describes common characteristics of all generation...

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

Do you not understand that this generation contemporary with Christ was a very particular generation foretold of from of old?