The Second Coming...

[PreachTony]

While it appears we all believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and we all seemingly believe that He is going to return, we have differing opinions on the How, why, and when.

Jesus said (emphasis added):

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Per this scripture, Jesus has gone to prepare us a place, and He promises to return to take us up to be with Him. Many people have tried to pinpoint the exact time of the second coming. A simple search of Wikipedia (admittedly not the best source) shows numerous failed predictions. Some men have even predicted the second coming multiple times, and then created very tenuous excuses as to why their prediction failed.

Some of these predictions have come men who claim to have a high-level understanding of prophecy and eschatology. Some are just eccentric. But the truth is, they don't know.

As Jesus said:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

And consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins:

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

There are some Christians who believe that there is still loads of prophecy to be fulfilled before Jesus comes back. Others believe that Jesus could return at any moment. Both sides can point to scripture to make their case.

What do you guys think? Can Jesus return at any moment? Or do we have to wait for certain events to come to pass before we need to start watching for His return?

This topic entered the discussion on another thread. In an effort to not derail that thread, I'm starting this one.

 

[The Biblicist]

While it appears we all believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and we all seemingly believe that He is going to return, we have differing opinions on the How, why, and when.

Jesus said (emphasis added):


Per this scripture, Jesus has gone to prepare us a place, and He promises to return to take us up to be with Him. Many people have tried to pinpoint the exact time of the second coming. A simple search of Wikipedia (admittedly not the best source) shows numerous failed predictions. Some men have even predicted the second coming multiple times, and then created very tenuous excuses as to why their prediction failed.

Some of these predictions have come men who claim to have a high-level understanding of prophecy and eschatology. Some are just eccentric. But the truth is, they don't know.

As Jesus said:


And consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins:


There are some Christians who believe that there is still loads of prophecy to be fulfilled before Jesus comes back. Others believe that Jesus could return at any moment. Both sides can point to scripture to make their case.

What do you guys think? Can Jesus return at any moment? Or do we have to wait for certain events to come to pass before we need to start watching for His return?

This topic entered the discussion on another thread. In an effort to not derail that thread, I'm starting this one.

My position is spelled out and defended at the following address:

http://victorybaptistchurch.webstarts.com/baptist_eschatology.html

 

[kyredneck]

.... Many people have tried to pinpoint the exact time of the second coming....

'The second coming' is a most precious holy sacred cow to many. It's difficult for them to civilly discuss it.

I believe the biblical 'second coming' has occurred already and that His NEXT coming to take us all home is the topic of 1 Cor 15.

 

[The Biblicist]

'The second coming' is a most precious holy sacred cow to many. It's difficult for them to civilly discuss it.

I believe the biblical 'second coming' has occurred already and that His NEXT coming to take us all home is the topic of 1 Cor 15.

So the "biblical" coming has already occurred? Then what is "His NEXT coming" in 1 Corinthians 15 if it is not a "BIBLICAL" coming?

 

[kyredneck]

So the "biblical" coming has already occurred?

You're quite deceitful aren't you? I said biblical 'second coming', as in:

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. He 10

 

[kyredneck]

Biblical 'second coming':

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

Occurred already. Done. Completed. Past. Over with. Finished.

 

[Revmitchell]

While it appears we all believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and we all seemingly believe that He is going to return, we have differing opinions on the How, why, and when.

[/B][/U][/I]

Not everyone on this board believes this. Some hold to the heresy of preterism.

 

[The Biblicist]

You're quite deceitful aren't you? I said biblical 'second coming', as in:

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. He 10

A coming in destruction occurred on Jerusalem in the Old Testament. A coming in destruction occurred on Babylon in the Old Testament. A coming in destruction occurred on Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

However, the "second" coming of Christ has NEVER happened except in the imagination of a few heretics.

 

[kyredneck]

...He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen...

It wasn't merely a coming in destruction, it was a regime change, as in:

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not everyone on this board believes this. Some hold to the heresy of preterism.

Do you lump in Partial Preterism?

 

[The Biblicist]

...He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen...

It wasn't merely a coming in destruction, it was a regime change, as in:

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

With the destruction of the temple, "the keys of the kingdom" were given to the church. But this occurred at the FIRST coming (Mt. 18:17-18). His SECOND coming is clearly and explicitly stated to be exactly like his ascension into heaven and that did not occur at A.D. 70 no matter how you stretch, squeeze and manipulate the Word of God:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you know what "like manner" means? No such "like manner" AS YE HAVE SEEN him go occurred in A.D. 70 except maybe in somebodies fertile imagination!!

Nobody, saw Jesus come in A.D. 70 in this manner - nobody! A.D. 70 was merely a destruction of the old Covenant economy which had already been replaced at his first coming. But there was no SECOND COMING of Christ in A.D. 70.

His first coming to earth was visible and announced and in physical visible personage. His second coming will be the reverse (heaven to earth) of what was visibly seen in Acts 1:11 (earth to heaven).

 

[Grasshopper]

Do you lump in Partial Preterism?

I have learned that few on this board know the difference.:BangHead:

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you lump in Partial Preterism?

All of the false views have some truths or else no one would embrace them. Historical Pre-millennialists could be classified to some extent as "partial Preterism."

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you lump in Partial Preterism?

I lump in anyone who denies a future, physical, and literal return of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

With the destruction of the temple, "the keys of the kingdom" were given to the church. But this occurred at the FIRST coming (Mt. 18:17-18).

Where exactly are you getting all this? It’s not in the text of Mt 18. Verse 18 is in reference to apostolic authority, not church authority, as demonstrated in Acts 15:19-20 or 1 Cor 5:5 and other places.

His SECOND coming is clearly and explicitly stated to be exactly like his ascension into heaven and that did not occur at A.D. 70 no matter how you stretch, squeeze and manipulate the Word of God:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you know what "like manner" means? No such "like manner" AS YE HAVE SEEN him go occurred in A.D. 70 except maybe in somebodies fertile imagination!!

….he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9

What exactly is your point? What is it that you think you have here? So, the angel says He left to heaven and from heaven He’ll return . There’s nothing here that nullifies not one of the myriad of references to His imminent return. Not in the least.

Nobody, saw Jesus come in A.D. 70 in this manner - nobody!

And you declare it with such confidence. I’ve not a doubt that any and every eye that He intended to see Him did so:

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

A.D. 70 was merely a destruction of the old Covenant economy which had already been replaced at his first coming. But there was no SECOND COMING of Christ in A.D. 70.

“Merely a destruction”? There nothing ‘mere’ concerning the ‘consummation of the age’ and the large portion of scripture that’s devoted to it and that was fulfilled by it. This is a shallow attitude for a ‘Biblicist’ to have.

Those forty years between Pentecost (baptism of the Spirit) and A.D. 70 (baptism of fire) were ‘the last days’ in which the written word was completed, and which presented a period of longsuffering for all those within that economy to come to repentance and not perish in the wrath that was to come.

His first coming to earth was visible and announced and in physical visible personage. His second coming will be the reverse of what was visibly seen in Acts 1:11.

Again, I don’t know exactly what it is in the Acts passage that you think refutes anything concerning His imminent return.

 

[evangelist6589]

My position is spelled out and defended at the following address:

http://victorybaptistchurch.webstarts.com/baptist_eschatology.html

Hey Mark do you have print copies of these books?

 

[PreachTony]

Not everyone on this board believes this. Some hold to the heresy of preterism.

As someone else noted, I was curious where you stood on the issue of partial preterism. In my study, I've found that I would most likely lump myself into the partial preterist camp, even though I don't fully agree with them. I suppose that makes me a partial-partial preterist.

I do believe that quite a few prophecies have already been fulfilled, though I still believe that Jesus has yet to physically return.

All of the false views have some truths or else no one would embrace them. Historical Pre-millennialists could be classified to some extent as "partial Preterism."

From what I've gathered, it looks like the majority of partial preterists fall into the amil or postmil camps. If that is indeed the case, then it makes a certain degree of sense to me. I've always been in the amil camp, myself.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hey Mark do you have print copies of these books?

Sorry, but they are only online reads. Some of the other books on the other web pages are published but not these.

 

[DHK]

Again, I don’t know exactly what it is in the Acts passage that you think refutes anything concerning His imminent return.

It refutes a denial of the two of the greatest historic orthodox doctrines that all of Christendom has ever believed: Baptist, Protestant, and even Catholic, and that is: 1) the ascension of Jesus Christ, and 2) the imminent and physical return of Jesus Christ. They both go together and are taught in this passage.

In the Intro:
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:[/FONT]
--First the resurrection took place. Then he was seen of them for 40 days. Then he was taken up out of their sight. It is called the ascension. Take a good look at "The Apostle's Creed" for antiquity's sake.
Just this part:
" the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead."
Apparently it comes from The Creed of Hippolytus written ca. 215 A.D.

Historic doctrines? Yes they are. Orthodox as well.
It is worth noting that the Kingdom did not come. The Kingdom is still to come. It is still future. Jesus had no plans to set up His Kingdom in the first century. He rebuked his disciples for even asking about it.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.[/FONT]
--It was not for them to know. Their business was spelled out in the Great Commission given in the next verse, verse 8. Any thoughts of the Kingdom they were to put behind them.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/FONT]
--"While they beheld." As they were still looking or gazing at Him, he was taken up into heaven just as Luke has already stated in verse two. Then a cloud received him out of their sight. They saw with their own eyes Jesus go up out of their sight.
vs. 10--They were still looking up into the sky into the place where they saw him disappear when two angels got their attention and "brought them back to earth" again.
vs. 11--They promised them that "this same Jesus" which they just saw with their own eyes go up into heaven, "shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.

Now whether you want to debate that is the rapture or the Second Coming is a whole other topic. But it is a statement of fact that he is coming again. It will by physical; it will be visible; it will be apparent to all.

As he ascended he will come again.
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.[/FONT]
--Every eye shall see him. They also which pierced him (the Jewish nation).

He will come in glory:
[FONT=&quot]Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[/FONT]

He will come to a physical place, just as he did the first time when he was born in Bethlehem. This time it will be the Mount of Olives.
[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/FONT]
--And the mountain shall be split in two.

He will come with the armies of heaven--his saints.
[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.[/FONT] (see also 19:8)

He will come quickly, suddenly; it will be imminent.
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.[/FONT]
--It is the last promise in the Bible and the last prayer in the Bible.
John wrote this book ca. 98 A.D. still praying for Christ to come, and Christ still promising that he will come quickly. Obviously the destruction of The Temple was long past, almost 30 years past, and John was still praying for the Lord to return.

The Book of Jude was also one of the last books to be written. Most date it around 70 A.D., possibly as late as 80 A.D. It very well could have been written after the destruction of the Temple. And yet that clear cut promise of the coming of the Lord still remains.
[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[/FONT]
--Its words are just as inspired as any other Scripture and ring true to this day.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where exactly are you getting all this? It’s not in the text of Mt 18. Verse 18 is in reference to apostolic authority, not church authority, as demonstrated in Acts 15:19-20 or 1 Cor 5:5 and other places.

Better inform Christ then because this is in the context of "tell it to the church....and if they hear not the church."

….he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9

What exactly is your point? What is it that you think you have here? So, the angel says He left to heaven and from heaven He’ll return . There’s nothing here that nullifies not one of the myriad of references to His imminent return. Not in the least.

Can't read to well can you? Do you know what the words "in like manner as ye have seen" mean?

And you declare it with such confidence. I’ve not a doubt that any and every eye that He intended to see Him did so:

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26

Circular reasoning! You can't use the texts which are the subject of debate to prove your point! Of course you know that but don't care right?

“Merely a destruction”? There nothing ‘mere’ concerning the ‘consummation of the age’ and the large portion of scripture that’s devoted to it and that was fulfilled by it. This is a shallow attitude for a ‘Biblicist’ to have.

I will tell you what a "heretic" is (Tit. 3;10). It is someone who simply does not care about the Biblical evidence contrary to his opinion, but is determined to read his/her view into it regardless of however stupid it appears as he/her has closed his/her mind to any other view regardless of contrary clear and explicit evidence. No common sense, no objective attitude, nothing but pure stubborn opinion.

Those forty years between Pentecost (baptism of the Spirit) and A.D. 70 (baptism of fire) were ‘the last days’ in which the written word was completed, and which presented a period of longsuffering for all those within that economy to come to repentance and not perish in the wrath that was to come.

They were the last days of the Old Covenant dispensation as a kingdom administration on earth during this age. But they were not the last days of this age and Jesus did not come personally and visible "in like manner as ye have seen" him go to heaven. Only in your perverted imagination.

Again, I don’t know exactly what it is in the Acts passage that you think refutes anything concerning His imminent return.

I believe you! You don't know because you can't see even though it is spelled out in the clearest possible language "in like manner as ye have seen....so shall he return" that even a child could understand and know.