Israel and the Church Contrasted

[Getting it Right]

I received this question: "I do not understand how Israel fits into the future, since today individual Israelis are saved by Grace in Christ. Can you explain?"
_______________________________________________

A: If National Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah 2,000 years ago all Jews would have been instantly accounted as redeemed and scheduled for arrival in the Kingdom of God on earth when that Hebrew Bible promise comes to pass. If an individual Jew back then accepted Jesus as Messiah, such as did the Apostles and disciples of Jesus, he/she was automatically accounted as redeemed, then scheduled for resurrection in the Kingdom of God on earth. It would be the same for each proselyte to Judaism. Obviously, National Israel rejected Jesus as the Promised Messiah. Obviously, individual Jews in that day would not have been "saved by Grace through Faith, the gift of God," but by identifying with the Messiah, as in the "New Jewish Covenant" (Book of Matthew).

Matthew 23: 37-38 ~ "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" (NASB)

Luke 16:16 implied paraphrase: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John (the Baptizer, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:1-3); since that time the gospel of the Kingdom FROM Heaven (Matthew), Kingdom FROM God (Mark & Luke), has been preached, will be established on earth, will represent the New Jewish Covenant; everyone is forcing* his way into it now. 17 But it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail." (NASB, describing the severity of the Law; the impossibility of obeying every demand in it). *Works.

The Jews, as a Nation, had to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, as announced beginning in Genesis 12, rather than attempting to comply with the whole of the Mosaic Law. That Law pointed out the failure of the Hebrew Nation rather than pointing to national success. In other words, the Law was an obstacle that could not be overcome through works; only by the Amazing Grace of God through Jesus.

Luke 19:42 saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes." (NASB). The "Mystery" hidden in Christ was not revealed until the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9). It included Grace minus works and the eventual Rapture of Christians. Today a non-Jew or Jew who accepts Jesus as Savior (not Jewish Messiah) is automatically seated Spiritually in Heaven (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The Messianic Promise was rescheduled when salvation by Grace through Faith was introduced by Saul (Acts 9; Acts 13), who eventually became known as the Apostle Paul and wrote Romans through Philemon (the "New Christian Covenant") and the warning to Jews in the Book of Hebrews.

 

[Yeshua1]

I received this question: "I do not understand how Israel fits into the future, since today individual Israelis are saved by Grace in Christ. Can you explain?"
_______________________________________________

A: If National Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah 2,000 years ago all Jews would have been instantly accounted as redeemed and scheduled for arrival in the Kingdom of God on earth when that Hebrew Bible promise comes to pass. If an individual Jew back then accepted Jesus as Messiah, such as did the Apostles and disciples of Jesus, he/she was automatically accounted as redeemed, then scheduled for resurrection in the Kingdom of God on earth. It would be the same for each proselyte to Judaism. Obviously, National Israel rejected Jesus as the Promised Messiah. Obviously, individual Jews in that day would not have been "saved by Grace through Faith, the gift of God," but by identifying with the Messiah, as in the "New Jewish Covenant" (Book of Matthew).

Matthew 23: 37-38 ~ "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" (NASB)

Luke 16:16 implied paraphrase: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John (the Baptizer, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:1-3); since that time the gospel of the Kingdom FROM Heaven (Matthew), Kingdom FROM God (Mark & Luke), has been preached, will be established on earth, will represent the New Jewish Covenant; everyone is forcing* his way into it now. 17 But it is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail." (NASB, describing the severity of the Law; the impossibility of obeying every demand in it). *Works.

The Jews, as a Nation, had to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, as announced beginning in Genesis 12, rather than attempting to comply with the whole of the Mosaic Law. That Law pointed out the failure of the Hebrew Nation rather than pointing to national success. In other words, the Law was an obstacle that could not be overcome through works; only by the Amazing Grace of God through Jesus.

Luke 19:42 saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes." (NASB). The "Mystery" hidden in Christ was not revealed until the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9). It included Grace minus works and the eventual Rapture of Christians. Today a non-Jew or Jew who accepts Jesus as Savior (not Jewish Messiah) is automatically seated Spiritually in Heaven (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The Messianic Promise was rescheduled when salvation by Grace through Faith was introduced by Saul (Acts 9; Acts 13), who eventually became known as the Apostle Paul and wrote Romans through Philemon (the "New Christian Covenant") and the warning to Jews in the Book of Hebrews.

National israel will be turned back to God, will be prepared to say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord", by the events of the great tribulation, and when they receive Jesus at His second coming, at that day a nation is reborn, and the whole earth will be blessed!

Ezekiel 37/38 finally fulfilled!

 

[Getting it Right]

..............and all God's children shouted, "AMEN!" http://tinyurl.com/kj6pe6x

 

[savedbymercy]

National Israel is not the True Israel of God !

National Israel is not the True Israel of God and was not the Israel that God made His Gracious Covenant Promises to, for God does not make Gracious Promises to unbelievers, but to people of Faith ! Now the Israel which God made the Promises to is that Israel which is called a Remnant, a Remnant Israel, a small segment out of National Israel, a small few mostly comprised of ethnic jews which were of The Election of Grace, a small remnant, as mentioned here Isa 1:9

Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Outside of that very small remnant of the nation of israel, that nation was no more significant to God than sodom and gomorrah, who we know were not God's Chosen Israel !

Paul again mentions this very small remnant here Rom 11:5

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant according to the Election of Grace is Israel Too ! Paul inidicates that here also Rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Remnant], which are of Israel[nationally]:

And of course Isaiah mentioned Remnant Israel in Isa 1:9, and its noteworthy that Isaiah identifies himself not with national israel, but with Remnant Israel that God Left ! Isa 9:6

6 For unto us[Remnant Israel The Church] a child is born, unto us[Remnant Israel] a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Yeshua1]

National Israel is not the True Israel of God and was not the Israel that God made His Gracious Covenant Promises to, for God does not make Gracious Promises to unbelievers, but to people of Faith ! Now the Israel which God made the Promises to is that Israel which is called a Remnant, a Remnant Israel, a small segment out of National Israel, a small few mostly comprised of ethnic jews which were of The Election of Grace, a small remnant, as mentioned here Isa 1:9

Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Outside of that very small remnant of the nation of israel, that nation was no more significant to God than sodom and gomorrah, who we know were not God's Chosen Israel !

Paul again mentions this very small remnant here Rom 11:5

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant according to the Election of Grace is Israel Too ! Paul inidicates that here also Rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Remnant], which are of Israel[nationally]:

And of course Isaiah mentioned Remnant Israel in Isa 1:9, and its noteworthy that Isaiah identifies himself not with national israel, but with Remnant Israel that God Left ! Isa 9:6

6 For unto us[Remnant Israel The Church] a child is born, unto us[Remnant Israel] a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

To the Apostle paul, all of the Jews that receive Jesus as the promised messiah were sons of Abraham, were spiritual israel...

 

[savedbymercy]

To the Apostle paul, all of the Jews that receive Jesus as the promised messiah were sons of Abraham, were spiritual israel...

What about Gentiles that receive Jesus as the Promised Messiah, are they also Sons of Abraham and Spiritual Israel ? I say Yes, what say you ?

 

[Yeshua1]

What about Gentiles that receive Jesus as the Promised Messiah, are they also Sons of Abraham and Spiritual Israel ? I say Yes, what say you ?

No, they are part of the Body of christ, his bride, along with those spiritual israelites!

 

[savedbymercy]

No, they are part of the Body of christ, his bride, along with those spiritual israelites!

No you are in error. They are all the same ! The Church, the Body of Christ, is the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, which is Spiritual Israel Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's/Messiah, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You seem to be attempting to make a distinction in the Spiritual realm, for Spirituality doesnt have ethnicity distinctions !

 

[Yeshua1]

No you are in error. They are all the same ! The Church, the Body of Christ, is the Spiritual Seed of Abraham, which is Spiritual Israel Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's/Messiah, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You seem to be attempting to make a distinction in the Spiritual realm, for Spirituality doesnt have ethnicity distinctions !

Pauline distinction would be that he equates all spiritual jews and children of Abraham as being those saved in Christ, but the church is NOT exactly same as that!

 

[NetChaplain]

The "new covenant with the house of Israel" (Jerm 31; Eze 36) is not the New Covenant in Christ's Blood (Mat 26:28; Mar 14:24; Luk 22:20; Heb 10:29; 12:24; 13:20), it will be a Testament (Covenant) between God and the final surviving "House of Israel," which will be many by then--more than ever before--just as any who have had more time to populate.

The Testament (Covenant) in Christ's Blood is not between God and man but between God (Father) and His Son concerning the salvation of those who will be recipients of it in Christ. This will not involve "statutes" and "judgments" (Eze 36:27) which will be similar to the prior Covenant but not the same or "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" (Jer 31:32), for this time God will put His Spirit within" them (Eze 36:27).

The two telltales for me concerning the identification of who God is relating this to is "the house of Israel," which does not directly involve Christians. The other is that it will involve "law" (Jer 31:33), which was never included within Christianity. There are numerous differential identifications but Scripture is a bit obscure concerning them.

 

[savedbymercy]

nc

The "new covenant with the house of Israel" (Jerm 31; Eze 36) is not the New Covenant in Christ's Blood

Says who ? Do you have a scripture that states that ?

 

[savedbymercy]

Pauline distinction would be that he equates all spiritual jews and children of Abraham as being those saved in Christ, but the church is NOT exactly same as that!

Says who ? The Church is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 and since this Seed of Abraham includes both jew and Gentile, it must be Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Christ is the Head of this Seed of Abraham yes or No ? Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now Christ, is the Head of His Body the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now is this Christ the same One in Gal 3:29 ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Says who ? The Church is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 and since this Seed of Abraham includes both jew and Gentile, it must be Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Christ is the Head of this Seed of Abraham yes or No ? Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now Christ, is the Head of His Body the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now is this Christ the same One in Gal 3:29 ?

Geniles have been included now into salvation, due the work of christ on our behalf, but spiritual isreal is those Jews professing Jesus as Lord!

 

[Yeshua1]

The "new covenant with the house of Israel" (Jerm 31; Eze 36) is not the New Covenant in Christ's Blood (Mat 26:28; Mar 14:24; Luk 22:20; Heb 10:29; 12:24; 13:20), it will be a Testament (Covenant) between God and the final surviving "House of Israel," which will be many by then--more than ever before--just as any who have had more time to populate.

The Testament (Covenant) in Christ's Blood is not between God and man but between God (Father) and His Son concerning the salvation of those who will be recipients of it in Christ. This will not involve "statutes" and "judgments" (Eze 36:27) which will be similar to the prior Covenant but not the same or "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" (Jer 31:32), for this time God will put His Spirit within" them (Eze 36:27).

The two telltales for me concerning the identification of who God is relating this to is "the house of Israel," which does not directly involve Christians. The other is that it will involve "law" (Jer 31:33), which was never included within Christianity. There are numerous differential identifications but Scripture is a bit obscure concerning them.

you make a valid point here, as one needs to read the Bible with the understanding that not all isreal is really isreal refers to paul addressing the faithful remnant of believing jews of his time and going forward, not to gentiles in the church!

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, my point is that the Jews (believing ones) and Gentiles (believing ones) make up the true Israel. We are "one people" united under the blood of Christ.

That is what Paul says at the end of Romans 2.

And it is what Paul says in Romans 9.

So you are on good ground in that regard.

 

[BobRyan]

Says who ? The Church is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 and since this Seed of Abraham includes both jew and Gentile, it must be Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Christ is the Head of this Seed of Abraham yes or No ? Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now Christ, is the Head of His Body the Church Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now is this Christ the same One in Gal 3:29 ?

And Christ was leading Israel in the OT -- see 1Cor 10:4.

And of course Paul says they are not all Israel who are children of the flesh - in 1Cor 9 but rather children of the promise that includes Gentiles as he points out in the last 4 verses of Romans 2.

 

[savedbymercy]

And Christ was leading Israel in the OT -- see 1Cor 10:4.

And of course Paul says they are not all Israel who are children of the flesh - in 1Cor 9 but rather children of the promise that includes Gentiles as he points out in the last 4 verses of Romans 2.

Yeah he points it out also in Rom 4 that Gentiles are with him Heirs of Promise, of his Seed Rom 4:9-17

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith[Gentiles who believe].

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law[jews], but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham[the uncircumcision]; who is the father of us all [both jew and Gentile Believers],

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[savedbymercy]

yeshua

Geniles have been included now into salvation, due the work of christ on our behalf, but spiritual isreal is those Jews professing Jesus as Lord!

Spiritual Israel is any believer in Christ, I just showed you that they which belong to Christ, the Head of the Church, are Abraham's Seed Gal 3:29. Abraham's Seed is Israel, they are the same in scripture.

Salvation is what its all all about, Only One People did God Promise to Save, Israel Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Thats why Gentiles are included in Salvation as you stated, because they belong to Spiritual Israel in Christ, there is no racial distinction in Christ, all are of One Seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

You are playing a dangerous game, trying to make a racial distinction in the Body of Christ, that is a false Gospel concept, its contrary to the Gospel ! So be ye warned !

 

[Getting it Right]

The Testament (Covenant) in Christ's Blood is not between God and man but between God (Father) and His Son concerning the salvation of those who will be recipients of it in Christ. This will not involve "statutes" and "judgments" (Eze 36:27) which will be similar to the prior Covenant but not the same or "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" (Jer 31:32), for this time God will put His Spirit within" them (Eze 36:27).

The two telltales for me concerning the identification of who God is relating this to is "the house of Israel," which does not directly involve Christians. The other is that it will involve "law" (Jer 31:33), which was never included within Christianity. There are numerous differential identifications but Scripture is a bit obscure concerning them.

Nice post....... I have some problems with Scripture being "a bit obscure." That would have to be so for those who are not born again, but for those who are, ????? (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

:wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

The "new covenant with the house of Israel" (Jerm 31; Eze 36) is not the New Covenant in Christ's Blood

UNTIL you read Heb 8

In the New Testament it is still made "with the house of Israel" because the church is Israel in the NT.

Heb 8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

====================

Just as we see it in Jer 31:31-33

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


=========================

.

The two telltales for me concerning the identification of who God is relating this to is "the house of Israel," which does not directly involve Christians. The other is that it will involve "law" (Jer 31:33), which was never included within Christianity. There are numerous differential identifications but Scripture is a bit obscure concerning them.

You have cut off your own argument because Heb 8 places it in the New Testament - for Christians with Christ as our High Priest in heaven.

Impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob