BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I said 1Corf 9 -- I meant Romans 9
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Israel and the Church Contrasted
- Thread starter NetChaplain
- Start date
I said 1Corf 9 -- I meant Romans 9
savedbymercy
New Member
Paul says that Israel after the flesh, that is the mere physical descendants of Abraham, Israel according to physical descent, they as a whole are not the Children of God, the Heirs of Promise Rom 9:8 !
They are not so in the same sense that chinese people according to ethnicity are not, or russian people according to the flesh are not, or africian people according to the flesh are not are not, ones ethnicity has no consideration at all determining the Children of God and Promise ! To elevate the flesh of the jews over all other people groups is to make God to be a Respecter of persons as well as it becomes idolatry, because it is trust or confidence in the flesh !
Remember Paul equated ethnicity considerations as to be in favor with God to be confidence/ trust in the flesh Phil 3:3-5
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
So those of you who believe being a ethnic jew somehow gains you favor or privilege or spirituality with God based upon that, at any point, you are guilty of Trusting in the flesh , which is Idolatry ! Jer 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
Is jewish ethnicity something you trust in ? Then your heart is departed from the Lord, thats Apostacy !
Hi SBM - There are doctrines in which Scripture does not directly word or phrase their teachings but is disclosed by implication, such as your inquiry. I do not find the Lord's "new testament in My blood" (Luke 22:20) to be exclusive to Israel, as I do concerning "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31).
In my understanding, this new covenant with Israel will not involve those of the past who have died, in which the unbelieving ones perished forever; but it can only be related to the unbelieving Israelites at His coming (per His promises concerning Israel), whom God "will cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments, and do them" (Eze 36:27).
As shown in this passage, it will be similar to God putting His Spirit within the believing Jews and Gentiles since that special day of Pentecost which was not exclusive to Israel, but "I will put My Spirit within you" will be exclusive to Israel.
The problem is that many fail to see that the Lord postponed the Kingdom unto national isreal due to their unbelief, and allowed Gentiles to come unto jesus to get saved, same as the Jews now, so in this age no distinction, as both must come to God by Jesus to get saved, but at the end, God starts to deal with national isreal again, to prepare them to welcome back jesus as the true messiah...
they fail to see the rapture, and that God still has plans for BOTH Isreal and the Church ...
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Heb 8 Paul states that the New Covenant is present reality --
Not future or not available to us today.
Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the Kingdom" shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come.
Matt 28 Go into all the world - make disciples - teach them what I taught you --
Romans 9 "they are not all Jews who are children of the flesh...rather it is children of the promise that are heirs "
Romans 2 "he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart - by the Holy Spirit".
Heb 8 New Covenant made with "Israel" still valid in the NEW Testament - and God writes His Law on our heart and mind -- both Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8 agree.
I wouldn't think believing Israelites would be included with "the house of Israel" when this prophecy comes to pass, for the believing Jews (Abraham, Apostles, etc.), along with believing Gentiles are no longer considered "Jew nor Gentile" but Christians. Speculatively, that's why I think the Jer/Eze prophecies are related to unbelieving Israel at His coming. These are not those who are after Abraham's seed (Christ), which are in the Body.
The subject of Israel is the most complicated and therefore difficult for anyone to comment clearly concerning everything about them. I also think we will all learn more as, or if this discussion continues.
Galatians 3:25 relates to Jews who were "are no longer under a schoolmaster" and that only verse 28 mentions the Gentile, and that is related to their union with the believing Jew.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Both Romans 9 and Romans 2 clearly apply the term "Jew" and "descendent of Abraham" to gentile Christians. Your points seems to be that the New Covenant cannot apply to Gentile Christians because the term "Israel" (as in Romans 9) and "Jew" (as in Romans 2) -- I don't follow that it can possibly be argued that Paul in Hebrews 8 cannot be using the same terms and same definitions we all agree to in Romans 2 and Romans 9 regarding "Israel" and "Jew".
How can you be so confident these are not the same terms used in the same way by the same author?
In Gal 3 it is "all the world" that is under a school master - until "Faith comes" --
Both Romans 3 and Gal 3 place all the world (not just Jews) under sin and in need of salvation. Only by choosing faith in Christ does an individual "come to faith" -- salvation is individual but condemnation under the law is global and applicable in all ages of fallen man - all condemned unless they accept the Gospel.
How can you be so confident these are not the same terms used in the same way by the same author?
In Gal 3 it is "all the world" that is under a school master - until "Faith comes" --
Both Romans 3 and Gal 3 place all the world (not just Jews) under sin and in need of salvation. Only by choosing faith in Christ does an individual "come to faith" -- salvation is individual but condemnation under the law is global and applicable in all ages of fallen man - all condemned unless they accept the Gospel.
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savedbymercy
New Member
nc
I agree with some of your comment !
Thats your opinion but you have no biblical basis for it, simply because that would make the House of Israel in that passage to mean the physical descendants of Abraham according to the flesh Israel, which are exempt altogether from being the Children of God and Promise to whom the Covenant Promises apply Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And the New Covenant Promises to Israel is to the Children / Sons of God Jer 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
2 Cor 6:14-18 describes the Church as the same ones 2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
This totally eliminates the idea that those in Jer 31, Israel is speaking of the Physical descendants of Abraham Israel according to the flesh !
I agree with some of your comment !
Thats your opinion but you have no biblical basis for it, simply because that would make the House of Israel in that passage to mean the physical descendants of Abraham according to the flesh Israel, which are exempt altogether from being the Children of God and Promise to whom the Covenant Promises apply Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And the New Covenant Promises to Israel is to the Children / Sons of God Jer 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
2 Cor 6:14-18 describes the Church as the same ones 2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
This totally eliminates the idea that those in Jer 31, Israel is speaking of the Physical descendants of Abraham Israel according to the flesh !
savedbymercy
New Member
br
I believe that it applys strictly to Abraham's Spiritual Seed ! Not all the world in general ! So the World would be all who eventually come to Faith in Christ, the total Spiritual Seed of Abraham from amongst all Nations Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's[jew or Gentile], then are ye Abraham's seed Israel, and heirs according to the promise.
I believe that it applys strictly to Abraham's Spiritual Seed ! Not all the world in general ! So the World would be all who eventually come to Faith in Christ, the total Spiritual Seed of Abraham from amongst all Nations Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's[jew or Gentile], then are ye Abraham's seed Israel, and heirs according to the promise.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
It has "shut up everyone under sin" not just Jews.
IT leads all to see themselves as sinners - not just Jews.
It leads all to the solution - Christ.
John 16 "The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin"
1John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW".
Paul applies the condemnation of the Law to the entire world, to everyone, every mouth closed... all have sinned.. all in need of the solution. Not just Jews.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
I'm sorry Bob but I don't know what to deal with first here, because we have no agreement with any of it. I'll see what I can do.
savedbymercy
New Member
You still missing my point. The Law was given to the Seed of Abraham, thats the context of Gal 3:16-27
Now I never stated that the whole world of men are not subject to the Law of God, but to none but the Seed of Abraham was the Law given to be a schoolmaster to Faith in Christ !
Thats something I have just supported with scripture !
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Certainly we all agree that it is just Israel physically standing there at Sinai.
But when God speaks to Cain he says of the sin of murder "sin crouching at your door" and as John explains in 1John 3:4 the definition for sin -- "sin is transgression of the LAW".
of that same law that in Rom 3 is condemning the whole world - Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do WE then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"
Same is also true in Gen 6 and 7 with clean and unclean animals where the definition for what that means is found in Lev 11.
mankind was guilty of sin long before Sinai.
And Paul makes the case in both Gal 3 and in Romans 3 using terms like "every mouth" and "all the world" and "everyone"...
Well we can all see it here --
==============================
Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
It has "shut up everyone under sin" not just Jews.
IT leads all to see themselves as sinners - not just Jews.
It leads all to the solution - Christ.
John 16 "The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin"
1John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW".
Paul applies the condemnation of the Law to the entire world, to everyone, every mouth closed... all have sinned.. all in need of the solution. Not just Jews.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Well then I have some very good news for you.
IF we were catholics we would be stuck - each one appealing to their own Pope or papal council or ...
But we are protestants - and we believe in sola scriptura testing of ALL doctrine -- so this should be a fairly simple matter to sort out via scripture.
in Christ,
Bob
savedbymercy
New Member
No, I don't agree, the Law was given to Spiritual Israel, who happened to be jews by nature at that time ! The Law of Moses was never given to the physical descendants of Abraham to be a schoolmaster to lead them to faith, but only a remnant from them ! For the Remnants sake was the National Covenant formed, A spiritual remnant/ seed !
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is no inspired writing in all of the OT that is given only to those who are already saved before reading it. Not even one text of the OT denies reading of it to those who may not have already been saved.
it is BEFORE the cross that we the Gospel preached "God so loved the WORLD that He gave ..." John 3:16. Not God so loved "just the predestined to be save - FEW of Matt 7" -- as I am sure we both agree.
in 1Cor 10:4 they ALL drank from the same spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ.
Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"
in the OT the moral Law of God also applied to gentiles - as even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship admits and as Isaiah points out
Is 56
“How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
6 “Also the foreignerswho join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
Is 66:23 even into the New Earth and forever "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down and worship"
And as Paul points out in Romans 3.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
it is BEFORE the cross that we the Gospel preached "God so loved the WORLD that He gave ..." John 3:16. Not God so loved "just the predestined to be save - FEW of Matt 7" -- as I am sure we both agree.
in 1Cor 10:4 they ALL drank from the same spiritual Rock - and that Rock was Christ.
Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"
in the OT the moral Law of God also applied to gentiles - as even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship admits and as Isaiah points out
Is 56
“How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the Lord,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.
6 “Also the foreignerswho join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
Is 66:23 even into the New Earth and forever "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to bow down and worship"
And as Paul points out in Romans 3.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
According to Paul in Gal 3 that is exactly why it was given.
And in both Romans 3 and Gal 3 "every mouth" and "all the world" and "every one" is bound by it - condemned by it - held accountable to it.
Your point about the Remnant and Spiritual Israel applies in that in all ages those who respond to that Law - and are convicted by out - turn to the Gospel solution God has offered to become "spiritual Israel".
Thus the "one Gospel" was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.
Thus in all ages even before the Jews in the case of Enoch - mankind is saved by grace through faith - and sees his sin defined by the LAW of God - and the solution for that sin problem found in the One Gospel.
Hence the New Covenant promise in the OT - Jer 31:31-33 and in the NT Heb 8.
in Christ,
Bob
savedbymercy
New Member
Galatians was written to believers, and the Law was given to them, to lead them to Faith in Christ. Now as far as everyone else is concerned, the Law is for their condemnation ! They live their whole lives under the curse of the Law !
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul tells the Christians in Galatia that the Law given in the OT was given to lead to Christ -- but he tells them that the Law condemns all mankind first - not as a gospel in itself - but as a teacher - teaching the lost that they need salvation.
It has always served that role for the lost. And of course the ceremonial law - of shadows and sacrifices pointed in all cases to the sacrifice of Christ. But the law of sacrifices did not "shut up everyone under sin" only the moral law can do that.
But for the saved it serves the role in Heb 8 and Jer 31:31-33 written on the heart - both in the case of the Jew and the gentile who believe.
Although I am a Sabbath keeping Seventh-day Adventist - the point I am making here is one that is held in common by the vast majority of scholarship on both sides of that question. All of the groups below accept this statement about the TEN Commandments as the Law of God binding upon all mankind from Eden to this very day.
"Baptist Confession of Faith"
"Westminster Confession of Faith"
C.H. Spurgeon
Andy Stanley
Matthew Henry
[FONT="]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
R.C Sproul
"D.L. Moody"
"Dies Domini"
as Paul points out in Romans 3.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
as Paul points out in Gal 3 "Every mouth closed" not "just every Jewish mouth closed". Notice that Paul says the LAW is "SCRIPTURE" --- "Scripture has shut up everyone under sin" -- those who are ready to "do without Scripture" once they come to faith - need to think this through a bit more. Paul does not say "scripture has shut up every Jew under sin" nor "every saved Jew under sin" nor "just the remnant under sin'.
Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
in Christ,
Bob
It has always served that role for the lost. And of course the ceremonial law - of shadows and sacrifices pointed in all cases to the sacrifice of Christ. But the law of sacrifices did not "shut up everyone under sin" only the moral law can do that.
But for the saved it serves the role in Heb 8 and Jer 31:31-33 written on the heart - both in the case of the Jew and the gentile who believe.
Although I am a Sabbath keeping Seventh-day Adventist - the point I am making here is one that is held in common by the vast majority of scholarship on both sides of that question. All of the groups below accept this statement about the TEN Commandments as the Law of God binding upon all mankind from Eden to this very day.
"Baptist Confession of Faith"
"Westminster Confession of Faith"
C.H. Spurgeon
Andy Stanley
Matthew Henry
[FONT="]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
R.C Sproul
"D.L. Moody"
"Dies Domini"
as Paul points out in Romans 3.
Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
as Paul points out in Gal 3 "Every mouth closed" not "just every Jewish mouth closed". Notice that Paul says the LAW is "SCRIPTURE" --- "Scripture has shut up everyone under sin" -- those who are ready to "do without Scripture" once they come to faith - need to think this through a bit more. Paul does not say "scripture has shut up every Jew under sin" nor "every saved Jew under sin" nor "just the remnant under sin'.
Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
in Christ,
Bob
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