Youth Ministry; Man Created not Biblically Mandated

[T Alan]

sometimes it's not about being "right" it's about the other guy (or fictional character) being wrong. gagagagaga

 

[Salty]

Seems like Poncho has a twin who posts on forums other than news & politics.

I am ready to give the twin of Poncho the same button push......

 

[annsni]

What about those who have an entirely separate service for the youth?

.......


Do y'all think it important to worship together (in the service) or is it preferable for the youth/children to be segregated throughout their time at church?

The idea of having children above a certain age being out of the service completely is wrong to me. I enjoy worshipping together as a family. What our church does is to have everyone in church during the singing time with families together. We sing a song, greet and then sing three more songs. Then it is time for the pastoral prayer and the kids are released to go to Sunday school. This is up to 6th grade. Above 6th, they stay in the service although right now we have two 7th graders going because otherwise it would be just a brother and sister attending and so we all decided that my daughter and her friend would go for one more year until hopefully we have a few more kids (Sunday attendance is only about 40-50). Children are welcome to stay in the service as long as they stay with their parents and aren't TOO noisy. We have a 2.5 month old that stays with mom and dad (no nursery set up right now) and she can be chatty sometimes but that's fine. We also have an 18 year old severely handicapped young man who can be noisy as well but he is welcome to stay too.

But I think for the message time, it is good for the children to have a message that they can really grasp and oftentimes that means bringing them out to a class for their age group. I absolutely think that teens should be in the service and if possible, even serving in the church. Being a part of something is vital, IMO.

 

[T Alan]

The idea of having children above a certain age being out of the service completely is wrong to me. I enjoy worshipping together as a family. What our church does is to have everyone in church during the singing time with families together. We sing a song, greet and then sing three more songs. Then it is time for the pastoral prayer and the kids are released to go to Sunday school. This is up to 6th grade. Above 6th, they stay in the service although right now we have two 7th graders going because otherwise it would be just a brother and sister attending and so we all decided that my daughter and her friend would go for one more year until hopefully we have a few more kids (Sunday attendance is only about 40-50). Children are welcome to stay in the service as long as they stay with their parents and aren't TOO noisy. We have a 2.5 month old that stays with mom and dad (no nursery set up right now) and she can be chatty sometimes but that's fine. We also have an 18 year old severely handicapped young man who can be noisy as well but he is welcome to stay too.

But I think for the message time, it is good for the children to have a message that they can really grasp and oftentimes that means bringing them out to a class for their age group. I absolutely think that teens should be in the service and if possible, even serving in the church. Being a part of something is vital, IMO.

So, the 6th and lower don't attend the corporate worship? Or is this "Sunday School" prior to the worship hour?

 

[annsni]

So, the 6th and lower don't attend the corporate worship? Or is this "Sunday School" prior to the worship hour?

ALL children are in during the worship time which is about the first 20-25 minutes of the service. Then they are released for Sunday school, we have the pastoral prayer, the offering and then the message for the adults. Hubby tends to preach 30-40 minutes and it might be long for very little ones to sit through but if a family decides to keep their child with them, that's totally fine too.

 

[Sapper Woody]

In New Testament times, teenagers were still considered to be adults. They're schooling was over, and they started families. There was no "teen ministry", because there wasn't a classification of "teenager".



In today's world, teens face a completely different set of challenges than do adults or children. Teens today feel more disconnected from adults, and in truth, many adults truly do not understand what pressures today's teens are facing. The era has changed.



They need someone who has successfully navigated the challenges they face, so that they can relate.



It's the same as many issues today. With my PTSD, I am not going to listen to someone who's not been there trying to tell me how to cope with it. How many pastors today (probably more than 10-20 years ago) had to deal with cell phones as a ten? Cyber bullying? The readily available porn from any computer or smart phone? And many other issues. Sure, the Bible speaks of standards and how to deal with temptation, but on a practical application, they need someone to relate to.

 

[Salty]

The title says:
Youth Ministry; Man Created not Biblically Mandated

Replace Youth ministry with:
Electricity
Musical instruments,
Church committees
Preaching out of the New Testament


Bottom Line " "Not Biblically mandated"
and that is true not only about the youth ministry, but the other items listed above. But on the other hand, neither are they Biblically PROHIBITED!

So Alan - can you show me where these items listed above are Prohibited by Scripture?

Until then ....

 

[T Alan]

In New Testament times, teenagers were still considered to be adults. They're schooling was over, and they started families. There was no "teen ministry", because there wasn't a classification of "teenager".



In today's world, teens face a completely different set of challenges than do adults or children. Teens today feel more disconnected from adults, and in truth, many adults truly do not understand what pressures today's teens are facing. The era has changed.



They need someone who has successfully navigated the challenges they face, so that they can relate.



It's the same as many issues today. With my PTSD, I am not going to listen to someone who's not been there trying to tell me how to cope with it. How many pastors today (probably more than 10-20 years ago) had to deal with cell phones as a ten? Cyber bullying? The readily available porn from any computer or smart phone? And many other issues. Sure, the Bible speaks of standards and how to deal with temptation, but on a practical application, they need someone to relate to.

Yeah, I'm sure of this one. Just look at what many churches do with them. Send them out from the gathering. It's not the Churches "job" to teach them to deal with cell phones, cyber bulling et cetera, that is where the PARENT should be. The purpose of the "Church" as it relates to "Teens" is to teach them to worship God with the body in truth and Spirit.

The Gospel is for all people of all ages. I believe in Family Integrated Church as the best for accomplishing this for all ages. I also believe that the Parent should be doing what it "thinks" the "YOUTH Pastor" is doing.

 

[T Alan]

Seems like Poncho has a twin who posts on forums other than news & politics.

I am ready to give the twin of Poncho the same button push......

This is the second time you have seemingly "threatened"me. The first was a "visit to ask me personally" and now pushing some sort of button.

I think you need a dose of "working medicine". Push that..:flower::love2:

 

[T Alan]

ALL children are in during the worship time which is about the first 20-25 minutes of the service. Then they are released for Sunday school, we have the pastoral prayer, the offering and then the message for the adults. Hubby tends to preach 30-40 minutes and it might be long for very little ones to sit through but if a family decides to keep their child with them, that's totally fine too.

Ahh. You refer to the musical portion of the service as "worship". I call everthing done the "worship service". Prayer, Singing, Preaching, Testimony, Praise reports etc..

I personally think the "teens" are old enough to sit under the proclamation of the Word, it is the word that changes a man (kid). A shame many think they aren't "ready" to sit under the preaching.

 

[T Alan]

The title says:
Youth Ministry; Man Created not Biblically Mandated

Replace Youth ministry with:
Electricity
Musical instruments,
Church committees
Preaching out of the New Testament


Bottom Line " "Not Biblically mandated"
and that is true not only about the youth ministry, but the other items listed above. But on the other hand, neither are they Biblically PROHIBITED!

uh Salty, Electricity wasn't available in Jesus' day. If it was I'm sure He would have been an Electrician instead of Stone Mason. They also didn't preach out of the New Testament because they were the New Testament. As for committees, that could be argued. Just because something isn't "prohibited" doesn't make it the thing to do.

 

[Salty]

uh Salty, Electricity wasn't available in Jesus' day. If it was I'm sure He would have been an Electrician instead of Stone Mason. They also didn't preach out of the New Testament because they were the New Testament. As for committees, that could be argued. Just because something isn't "prohibited" doesn't make it the thing to do.

Any reason you didn't answer about musical instruments? I cant think of one place in the NT, where instruments were used in worship. From you stated before - then we should not have committees. Or how about Chairman of the Deacons.

 

[annsni]

Ahh. You refer to the musical portion of the service as "worship". I call everthing done the "worship service". Prayer, Singing, Preaching, Testimony, Praise reports etc..

I personally think the "teens" are old enough to sit under the proclamation of the Word, it is the word that changes a man (kid). A shame many think they aren't "ready" to sit under the preaching.

Yeah, that's just our terminology. Our teens all sit in the whole service. My daughter would be sitting in the service as well at 11 years old but she chose to help make the other kids comfortable and to make sure there are more than just two in Sunday school. My son started staying in for the message at 11 years old as did my older daughters. It's just we have a bit of a different situation right now so we are changing things up a bit. I am looking forward to when she can stay in and hear dad's messages and be a part of the conversation on the way home about what we were taught that day and how dad did in communicating the Word.

 

[Gib]

Our children and youth have separate Sunday School classes & Wednesday night Bible studies/activities.

2nd graders & up sit in with the adults for Sunday morning worship. K-12 sit with adults on Sunday evenings.

 

[Thousand Hills]

T Alan, you asked if meeting people's spiritual needs by age group was Biblical.

Ann gave you plenty of personal testimony of how well it works when it works towards Biblical purposes.

RevMitchell gave you scripture about having to teach and preach to people where they are - in a milk state or a meat state.

That settles it for me. Your question has been answered with eye witness testimony and scripture. What else do you want? It's what you asked for.

If a competent leader of young people is working towards goals that culminate in leading young people towards justification and sanctification and leads them to become strong adults in the Lord, then segregated spiritual learning would not only be Biblical, but necessary from time to time.

I'm with T Alan on this one, I can't imagine how anybody cannot look at the statistics as a whole and not acknowledge that the "current" model of youth ministry is not working. Not to say that there aren't hard working folks in the trenches that are working with youth and having some success. But by and large the model most churches are using does not work.

How Many Youth are Leaving the Church?

If you discovered about half of the students in your church's youth ministry were going to walk away from Christ after entering college, would you do something about it? I hope so. That's not a very good retention rate.

But what percentage of Christian youth are actually leaving the church?

There’s been some debate about the actual number, with some saying as little as 4% will remain Christian, while others suggest there’s virtually no exodus. Christian Smith tells us that evangelicals have been "behaving badly with statistics" and quickly dispenses with the 4% "panic-attack" stats. But can we get some idea of the percentage of youth leaving the church without being irresponsible with numbers?

These are the most recent and most cited studies that I could find:

88%: The Southern Baptist Convention's Family Life Council study in 2002 (unfortunately, I can't find the actual study and methodology)

70%: LifeWay Research study in 2007 (LifeWay also found only 35% eventually return)

66%: Assembly of God study (again, I can't find the actual study, only references here and there)

61%: "Barna study in 2006 -- "Most Twentysomethings Put Christianity on the Shelf..."

The LifeWay and Barna studies include research details. I’m no sociologist but from what I can tell, their methodology seems sounds.

Here are some related studies:

"Spirituality in Higher Education": The Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA found that 52% of college students reported frequent church attendance the year before they entered college but only 29% continued frequent church attendance by their junior year.

College Transition Project: The Fuller Youth Institute's current data seems "to suggest that about 40-50% of students in youth groups struggle in their faith after graduation."

"The Religiosity Cycle": A 2002 Gallup Poll study found that church attendance “drops during the teen and young adult years.”

Conclusion: It's safe to conclude the church is losing a significant portion of its young people for some period of time. Even if we take Barna's lower numbers and then cut 10% off to be extra conservative, we're still talking about losing half of our young people.

Is that acceptable? And if not, why are we losing them and what needs to be done?

http://www.conversantlife.com/theology/how-many-youth-are-leaving-the-church

Milk vs. Meat.

And that is part of the problem as well in my opinion, by and large children are not challenged, neither are adults. I've been in church all of my life and the vast majority of that time it was milk only to adults and children. Only over the past few years have I gotten meat, and that's from searching it out because I was tired of milk.

 

[Salty]

...Not to say that there aren't hard working folks in the trenches that are working with youth and having some success. But by and large the model most churches are using does not work. ...

You quoted a study that said in part:
"If you discovered about half of the students in your church's youth ministry were going to walk away from Christ after entering college,"

What was the % of teens who walked away before the modern youth ministry began?

 

[Thousand Hills]

Yeah, I'm sure of this one. Just look at what many churches do with them. Send them out from the gathering. It's not the Churches "job" to teach them to deal with cell phones, cyber bulling et cetera, that is where the PARENT should be. The purpose of the "Church" as it relates to "Teens" is to teach them to worship God with the body in truth and Spirit.

Yes, real easy solution to the problems that Sapper Woody mentions. Its the parent's responsibility. Here is a great article from Challies

http://www.challies.com/articles/please-dont-give-them-porn-for-christmas

The Gospel is for all people of all ages. I believe in Family Integrated Church as the best for accomplishing this for all ages. I also believe that the Parent should be doing what it "thinks" the "YOUTH Pastor" is doing.

:thumbs: :thumbs: I agree with you T Alan, as for me and mine that's how we will roll. Here is a great article from TGC:

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-youth-stay-in-church-when-they-grow-up

What is it that sets apart the kids who stay in the church? Here are just a few observations I have made about such kids, with a few applications for those of us serving in youth ministry.

1. They are converted.
2. They have been equipped, not entertained.
3. Their parents preached the gospel to them.

 

[Gib]

"The parents responsibility" is only good if the parents are part of the equation. We have youth in our church and in other area churches whose parents aren't Christians, much less go to church. Whose responsibility is it then?

 

[T Alan]

"The parents responsibility" is only good if the parents are part of the equation. We have youth in our church and in other area churches whose parents aren't Christians, much less go to church. Whose responsibility is it then?

Still the Parents. Evangelize the Parents. Till the Men get right the family will never be right, till the family gets right the "Church" won't be right.

 

[Thousand Hills]

You quoted a study that said in part:
"If you discovered about half of the students in your church's youth ministry were going to walk away from Christ after entering college,"

What was the % of teens who walked away before the modern youth ministry began?

The church I currently attend has a model that sounds somewhat similar to that of Ann. No Sunday School, but the younger children are divided up by age and given classroom instruction after the first part of the service (worship music, prayer, welcoming, etc.). The teens stay through the whole service. But there is no organized youth group. The church seeks to equip the parents to be the leaders in the home and be instrumental in presenting the gospel to their children. The leadership takes extra care with children to avoid rushing and manipulating children to make "decisions".

To answer your question though about the stats I don't know what to tell you. Infant baptism was big back in the day, every parent wants their children to be saved. I believe it is in God's hands, but I have a responsibility as a parent to present the Gospel and point my child to Christ through the ups and downs of life. I'm not talking about morality, morality will not save, only the Gospel will.