Youth Ministry; Man Created not Biblically Mandated

[T Alan]

From Bro. Paul Washer's Ten Indictments Sermon

 

[Sapper Woody]

I was youth pastor at a church in Illinois for around 15 months. Because of a teen activity, a young man started coming to church. He brought friends. He had another friend who was college age, and was impressed by "Pastor Bob" (me, not the other one on here) who was a preacher, but played video games. That guy started coming to church, got right with God, and went off to Bible college.



In my time there, the youth group grew from 8 to 14-15. A young person who swore she'd never get saved (with an unchristian father, but who's mother forced to come) got saved because of the youth ministry.



The youth pastor isn't to replace the pastor. He's an extension of the pastor, to the youth.



Also, a common misconception is shown here on the board. You can have a youth program and STILL have the teens under the pastor's preaching. Sunday morning and Sunday night, my teens were in the main service. Wednesday night bible study was my time with them to discuss relatable topics, such as friends, dating, importance of church and God over money, etc. It was also an open forum for them to bring up topics they wanted to know more about.



I will never be convinced that youth ministry, done the right way and in conjunction with the pastor, is wrong. In fact, my personal opinion is that if a church doesn't have a youth ministry, they are doing themselves a disservice. If you want to"take a church's temperature", look at its youth; ministry or no. That will tell you how on fire they are.

 

[Salty]

...I think we make a mistake when we focus too much on youth, we throw more and more money, new programs, and other resources at the kiddos but the stats show that few of them remain into their 20's and 30's. Yet some of you all want to ignore the problem and castigate posters like T Alan who dares to ask a question about the effectiveness of youth ministry.

Balance is the key. Teens having their own service and absolutely no teen program are extremes that need to be avoided.
I agree that teens should be in the preaching service. Sunday School and Bible studies, as well as formatted programs can be excellent avenues for teens to grow.
It has been stated that a low % of teens continue the Christian walk after High School. Okay, so many do not continue, but how many remained faithful because of the programs.

And I would like to mention, that I had a similar experience that Sapper did - when I was a Youth Director.

And I am still waiting on two answers
1) where does the Bible PROHIBITS a youth ministry.
2) what the % of teens who dropped out of church pre-1940

 

[annsni]

I will never be convinced that youth ministry, done the right way and in conjunction with the pastor, is wrong. In fact, my personal opinion is that if a church doesn't have a youth ministry, they are doing themselves a disservice. If you want to"take a church's temperature", look at its youth; ministry or no. That will tell you how on fire they are.

Amen!! What drew us to our church was coming to the service and during the prayer time when people could come forward to pray, three young teen girls went up to stand next to the piano player and were praying with her. We didn't know that the piano player was the youth pastor's wife but that impressed us that #1 - teens were willing to pray in public (we had just left a church where this was absolutely not the case) and #2 - that the teens apparently had such a relationship with the youth pastor's wife that they knew they could go to her and have her pray for them. Now, many of the youth that went through that youth group have walked away from the faith but there are also many who stayed. One thing that absolutely brought tears to my eyes was back in October during our missions conference, a group of 4 pastors/missionaries got together after not seeing each other together like that for 15 years. They were 4 boys who went through the youth program, had a band, were troublemakers and yet now two were youth pastors, a senior pastor and a missionary training other missionaries. Praise God for what He has done in their lives!!

Having been in youth ministry for over 30 years, one thing I have seen. Yes, many youth walk away from the faith but did they ever really have the faith to begin with? I really think that a youth program is a wonderful place to be accepted, loved, have friends and hang out and during the rough teen years, so many kids are looking for that and so they come. They hear the gospel and seem to respond only to walk away once they were in college. I really think these kids "play the game" and are not really saved. But the time that was spent with them was not wasted because the gospel was preached and that will never be wrong. Gregg Harris, the father of Josh Harris of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" fame spoke of this idea and I think it is really true. He speaks of a "suspension of disbelief" where someone for a time sets aside their disbelief to believe in something they really don't actually believe in. An example would be to watch a movie like Superman where you know these things do not really happen but for a time as you watch the movie, you believe it. You have suspended your disbelief. In the same way, there are those who suspend their disbelief of God while in the midst of youth group or church (for adults) and they play the game but never have that heart change that needs to happen. I think this happens to many adults as well. I'd love to know the statistics for adults who at one time claimed to be a believer and how many still are actively pursuing their faith 10 years later.

 

[Thousand Hills]

But there is something that we should always do. Evaluate and reevaluate. That and refrain from being highly critical of methods other churches may use.

I agree here, and I hope that's how my post have come across that there is nothing wrong with looking at things and seeing how we can do it better, what are the fruits of our labors? Is everything we are doing lining up with scripture to the best of our ability?

And I apologize if I've come across offensive to Salty, Sapper Woody, or anybody else. There are many hardworking folks out there trying to reach youth with the Gospel. I'm glad that you all have had good experiences with the programs at your churches.

That being said I've probably not had the best experiences myself. For example:

(1) Had a friend in middle school/high school, he went to a large SBC church with very active youth program. Remember the joy he had when he got baptized. For several weeks after he called me wanting to have his youth group come by my house (I assume to witness even though I had already made a profession myself but did not attend his Baptist church). Several years later he got into drugs pretty heavy, etc. Don't know where he is now in his walk.

(2) Worked with youth myself for about 5 years +/- in the church I was raised in. Two of the kids in my group were the Pastor's sons. They had free access to a computer, MTV and the premium movie channels were available in their house 24/7. What good did it do me to teach on purity, etc. when the message was not backed up in their household by the actions of their parents?

(3) At an SBC church I attended for a while the youth pastor resigned to go to another church after some turmoil with the pastor had occurred. Many of the youth left as well, even though several had made a profession and been baptized less than a year earlier. They never came back, don't know if they went somewhere else. They did not join the church, they joined the youth group.

All we can do here in these discussions is cite scripture, articles/books we agree with, or share our personal experiences. These form our opinions. When it pertains to this issue I have a different opinion based upon what I believe is scriptural evidence, and my experiences. I just tend to believe the family equipping/integrated methods appear to be the best.

 

[Thousand Hills]

And I am still waiting on two answers
1) where does the Bible PROHIBITS a youth ministry.
2) what the % of teens who dropped out of church pre-1940

I don't know if your asking me or T Alan. I assume T Alan, but here goes.

1) don't see anywhere the Bible PROHIBITS a youth ministry, but I did provide Deuteronomy 6:6-8 how about Proverbs 22:6, both seem to be directed at the parents. There are no examples to my knowledge of the early church breaking up into age groups. When Christ fed the multitude were they not all there together (men, women, children)?

2) don't know, doubt there are statistics going back that far. Do you have any proof that teen retention has improved since before the 1940's due to the current methods? Let say that stats show 60% don't return now, but prior to the 40's 90% to 100% didn't return, then I guess the current method is successful.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Let me ask a question of those that are defending the current youth group/ministry model.

In the sermon I posted earlier from Washer, he brings up an interesting point, here is the snippet again.

No matter what denomination you are a part of, if you are a part of some denomination that is kind of organized, I can assure you that your denomination spends multi-millions of dollars on Sunday school material, on conferences, on teaching teachers how to teach Sunday school, and on doing everything in the book to promote Sunday school. I know that for a fact. Let me ask you. How much money does your denomination spend, and how many conferences and man-hours are invested, to teach fathers to teach their children?

There is everything available for Sunday school. But there is hardly a conference in this entire country to teach men how to teach their children.

So in addition to your youth groups, what are your churches doing to help strengthen bonds between the parents/children, how is your church equipping the parents? Do you have father/son camping retreats, mother/daughter events, etc.?

 

[JonC]

Let me ask a question of those that are defending the current youth group/ministry model.



In the sermon I posted earlier from Washer, he brings up an interesting point, here is the snippet again.











So in addition to your youth groups, what are your churches doing to help strengthen bonds between the parents/children, how is your church equipping the parents? Do you have father/son camping retreats, mother/daughter events, etc.?

Yes. We have father-son, and mother-daughter event. We also have husband-and-wife and entire family events. That said I find nothing wrong with events and programs designed to build strong bonds within a churches youth group. I don't think it is either-or.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Let me ask a question of those that are defending the current youth group/ministry model.





In the sermon I posted earlier from Washer, he brings up an interesting point, here is the snippet again.

















So in addition to your youth groups, what are your churches doing to help strengthen bonds between the parents/children, how is your church equipping the parents? Do you have father/son camping retreats, mother/daughter events, etc.?

A good youth pastor knows that he should never get in between a teen and their parents. The youth pastor should be in open communication with both the pastor and parents.



So, yes, parents should be involved. And there should be activities that involve the parents.

 

[T Alan]

Who's Youth Ministry has the 'coolest' name; Facedown, Code Red, After Shock, Altered State, Clones of Christ?
Which Youth Group has the best light system, the best sound system?
Which Youth Group takes the coolest trips. (ain't touching that one)
Who's the Hippest Leader?
Who's got the hottest chicks?

If your party doesn't stay the best, biggest they are going down the street to the next group that does.

These teens that are "raised" on this type "experience" get a reality jolt when they Graduate and peep in the windows of the Church and see the Adults in Worship. It's nothing there used to. Where is the stage? Where are the smoke machines, Wheres the hunk on the Screaming Guitar and the Bass, It's all about the bass no treble..the drummer solos, The "disco" balls. Where's the Church were used to??

I'll tell you where it is Son, it's down the street at the Charismatic Pentecostal Church, Isle Jumping, slain in the spirit, barking like dogs,uncontrollable laughter, Toking the Spirit, Fire Tunnels, Channeling,
Grave Soaking/Sucking. The Pentecostal Church is Growing. On What?
Baptist Kids that were raised on the Party atmosphere.

Jesus Culture whose lead female singer traveled to Heaven and God took her and place her in the hole in his heart. Hillsong United's prosperity Gospel.. Passion with Gigglylow.

The Partys of the Baptist Churches are feeding this emergent heretical movement.

But, hey, if it reaches one kid it's worth it huh? NO a Thousand times NO. God doesn't need gimmicks to bring His to Christ. The Spirit is All Powerful.

In many instances they have no idea of holiness, why, cause there some in the church screaming LEGALISM LEGALISM LEGALISM. Just relax and enjoy the "Liberty in Christ" and leave those legalist to there laws and rules.

 

[Salty]

Again - Alan - you are going to the Extreme-
You see, I use common sense.

 

[blessedwife318]

Who's Youth Ministry has the 'coolest' name; Facedown, Code Red, After Shock, Altered State, Clones of Christ?
Which Youth Group has the best light system, the best sound system?
Which Youth Group takes the coolest trips. (ain't touching that one)
Who's the Hippest Leader?
Who's got the hottest chicks?

If your party doesn't stay the best, biggest they are going down the street to the next group that does.

These teens that are "raised" on this type "experience" get a reality jolt when they Graduate and peep in the windows of the Church and see the Adults in Worship. It's nothing there used to. Where is the stage? Where are the smoke machines, Wheres the hunk on the Screaming Guitar and the Bass, It's all about the bass no treble..the drummer solos, The "disco" balls. Where's the Church were used to??

I'll tell you where it is Son, it's down the street at the Charismatic Pentecostal Church, Isle Jumping, slain in the spirit, barking like dogs,uncontrollable laughter, Toking the Spirit, Fire Tunnels, Channeling,
Grave Soaking/Sucking. The Pentecostal Church is Growing. On What?
Baptist Kids that were raised on the Party atmosphere.

Jesus Culture whose lead female singer traveled to Heaven and God took her and place her in the hole in his heart. Hillsong United's prosperity Gospel.. Passion with Gigglylow.

The Partys of the Baptist Churches are feeding this emergent heretical movement.

But, hey, if it reaches one kid it's worth it huh? NO a Thousand times NO. God doesn't need gimmicks to bring His to Christ. The Spirit is All Powerful.
It'

That was not my youth group experience. And I checked out quite a few different youth groups in high school but none were like that and the one I have the fondest memories of was having bible study on Sunday mornings and Wed night and some fellowship Sunday nights. I still remember some of the lessons 15 years later.

 

[T Alan]

That was not my youth group experience. And I checked out quite a few different youth groups in high school but none were like that and the one I have the fondest memories of was having bible study on Sunday mornings and Wed night and some fellowship Sunday nights. I still remember some of the lessons 15 years later.

REALLY? I would be interested to hear from others that don't see the "Youth" groups like I stated above. Maybe it's a Georgia THANG> But I don't think so.

I took our youth group to a "YEC" Youth Evangelism Conference in Macon GA, a few years ago. My kids and I got trampled when the doors opened.

Then what was on the stage (most not all) was sickening. They had a drum group and girls that were twerking (I now know). to the beat. I was horrified this was an SBC sponsored event.

 

[JonC]

REALLY? I would be interested to hear from others that don't see the "Youth" groups like I stated above. Maybe it's a Georgia THANG> But I don't think so.

I don't doubt it...but that is also foreign to my experience - both as a participant in the 80's and as a father now (in another state)- but I left Georgia decades ago :smilewinkgrin:

 

[T Alan]

That was not my youth group experience. And I checked out quite a few different youth groups in high school but none were like that and the one I have the fondest memories of was having bible study on Sunday mornings and Wed night and some fellowship Sunday nights. I still remember some of the lessons 15 years later.

I am thankful you and the others in your area had this teaching and care.

 

[T Alan]

Again - Alan - you are going to the Extreme-
You see, I use common sense.

Salty, you indeed may use common sense, but if you doubt that what I saw is taking place then you are deceived. I've saw it first hand. Youtube has lots of videos confirming this, do I need to post a few for you to see. Like I did with the Santa and the Mangers you had not seen?

 

[Gib]

I am thankful you and the others in your area had this teaching and care.

And there are still youth out there today that are getting the same kind of teaching and care with a youth minister in their church.

I went to one of those YEC in Macon. They asked all the "youth leaders" to meet before one of the sessions. I went expecting to see a room full of hipster, skinny-jean-wearing, twenty-something's. There were over a hundred folks in there. The majority of the folks I saw were middle-to-older-aged adults. I'm sure several were pastors and adult youth workers, but many were youth pastors.

As far as getting trampled, we wait for all the pushers and shovers to get through the doors and then casually walk in like a boss.

 

[Scarlett O.]

T Alan - you cannot throw a blanket over all youth ministries and claim them to be like the one you described in your rant.

Yes, there are some whackadoodle youth ministries.

There are also some whackadoodle preachers who preach and teach whackadoodle messages. There are also whackadoodle Sunday School teachers, music directors, evangelists, authors, bible forums members, and entire churches.

Our youth group is nothing like what you described. In fact, your lumping them all together as "unbiblical" is offensive.

 

[T Alan]

And there are still youth out there today that are getting the same kind of teaching and care with a youth minister in their church.

I went to one of those YEC in Macon. They asked all the "youth leaders" to meet before one of the sessions. I went expecting to see a room full of hipster, skinny-jean-wearing, twenty-something's. There were over a hundred folks in there. The majority of the folks I saw were middle-to-older-aged adults. I'm sure several were pastors and adult youth workers, but many were youth pastors.

As far as getting trampled, we wait for all the pushers and shovers to get through the doors and then casually walk in like a boss.

We got there when the doors opened and were at the inside door which were closed. Just before the time, they started "pumping" the crowd and when the doors opened something ungodly happened from those "godly" peep.

 

[Gib]

We got there when the doors opened and were at the inside door which were closed. Just before the time, they started "pumping" the crowd and when the doors opened something ungodly happened from those "godly" peep.

Well you've learned your lesson. Don't go to MOVE or whatever they YEC their having. MOVE moved to Athens anyways. Too far for South Ga folks to drive anyways.