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Justification Differences between Catholics and Protestants
- Thread starter The American Dream
- Start date
How does one receive justification in Catholicism? How do they get it back after they lose it?
Take a look at Abraham's justification as discussed in James 2, and there it is explicitly tied in with works, thus providing a perfect complementary balance with Romans 4 ?
James 2: 20-26 do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that" faith apart from works is dead"? [21] was not Abraham our father justified by works, when "he offered his son Isaac upon the altar"? [22] You see that faith alone along with his works and faith was completed with works [23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone [25] And in the same way was no Rahap the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
This is a wonderful cross-reference to Romans 4 in another respect: both cite the same Old Testament passage (Gen 15:6: seen in Rom 4:3 and James 2:23; also Gal 3:6). James, however, gives an explicit interpretation of the Old Testament passage, by stating, "and the scripture was" fulfilled" which says, . . ." (2:23). The previous three verses were all about justification, faith, and works, all tied in together, and" this" is what James says "fulfilled" Genesis 15:6. The next verse then condemns by disagreeing the notion of "faith alone" in the clearest way imaginable.
Scripture has to be interpreted as a harmonious whole.It can easily do that with these two passages: Roman 4 shows that the specific works of the Law that Jews lived by were not absolutely necessary for salvation, and that Abraham's faith was the key, while James 2 is discussing the organic connection between faith and works (in a general sense, using the willingness to sacrifice Isaac as an example), thus showing how "faith alone" is a meaningless and unscriptural concept: faith can never be totally separated from works, except in initial justification, since {in Catholic teaching as well as Protestant} no work we do can bring us initially to justification: that is all God's grace.
James 2 is usually applied by Protestants to sanctification, but that is not what the passage says. It mentions "justified "{ dikaloo: Strong's word #1344} three times{ 2:21, 24-25}: the same Greek word used in Romans 4:2, as well as 2:13; 3:20, 24, 28; 5:1, 9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:16-17; 3:11, 24; 5:4; and Titus 3:7. If James actually meant sanctification, on the other hand, he could have used one of two Greek words { hagiazo/ hagiasmos: Strong's #37-38) that appear (together) 38 times in the New Testament (the majority of times by Paul himself).
James 2: 20-26 do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that" faith apart from works is dead"? [21] was not Abraham our father justified by works, when "he offered his son Isaac upon the altar"? [22] You see that faith alone along with his works and faith was completed with works [23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone [25] And in the same way was no Rahap the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
This is a wonderful cross-reference to Romans 4 in another respect: both cite the same Old Testament passage (Gen 15:6: seen in Rom 4:3 and James 2:23; also Gal 3:6). James, however, gives an explicit interpretation of the Old Testament passage, by stating, "and the scripture was" fulfilled" which says, . . ." (2:23). The previous three verses were all about justification, faith, and works, all tied in together, and" this" is what James says "fulfilled" Genesis 15:6. The next verse then condemns by disagreeing the notion of "faith alone" in the clearest way imaginable.
Scripture has to be interpreted as a harmonious whole.It can easily do that with these two passages: Roman 4 shows that the specific works of the Law that Jews lived by were not absolutely necessary for salvation, and that Abraham's faith was the key, while James 2 is discussing the organic connection between faith and works (in a general sense, using the willingness to sacrifice Isaac as an example), thus showing how "faith alone" is a meaningless and unscriptural concept: faith can never be totally separated from works, except in initial justification, since {in Catholic teaching as well as Protestant} no work we do can bring us initially to justification: that is all God's grace.
James 2 is usually applied by Protestants to sanctification, but that is not what the passage says. It mentions "justified "{ dikaloo: Strong's word #1344} three times{ 2:21, 24-25}: the same Greek word used in Romans 4:2, as well as 2:13; 3:20, 24, 28; 5:1, 9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:16-17; 3:11, 24; 5:4; and Titus 3:7. If James actually meant sanctification, on the other hand, he could have used one of two Greek words { hagiazo/ hagiasmos: Strong's #37-38) that appear (together) 38 times in the New Testament (the majority of times by Paul himself).
Before we address James and your interpretation, let's focus on this statement . In the RCC, justification is initial received by infused grace, through baptism. That sounds like a work to me. It is a physical act that obtains justification.
James 2 and Romans 4 do not site the same scripture. Paul is referring to Gen 15 like you said, but James is referring to Gen. 22. Abram was justified long before Issac was on the altar, per Paul. In fact Issac was not yet born in Gen 15.
The word "justified" in James 2 is not referring to be reconciled to God and declare righteous. It is saying Abraham's claim to faith is justified by his fruit. The showed outward obedience. Physical proof he was of God. It added no merit to the already perfect merit Christ has provided. All of chapter 2 is stating that without works, there is no faith. True faith brings works. The full out working of faith is seen in works(fruit). It never makes works a requirement of salvation. It just states that faith brings works.
Romans:
"For if Abraham was justified by his works, he has something to boast about"
"....Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood"
James:
"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead."
"Show me your faith apart from works..."
"...of someone has faith, but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
The book of James is declaring that real faith has works. It comes with works. It is the visual sign of your faith. Works have no power of Justification. Paul made that clear in Romans and Ephesians.
Eph: For grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so no one may boast"
RCC makes justification a work. Justification is the hinge of salvation. Works of baptism and the 2nd plank of justification (RCC) turns salvation into a work.
McCree, you other Christians do not understand Ephesians 2:8-9. In this passage, Paul says we are not saved by works. But James says that we "are" saved by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24. Is there a contradiction? No.
Let me try to explain,the difference is that Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. When Paul speaks of works, he is generally referring to "works of law" (read also Galatians) which refer to works done under the Mosaic law. The Jews believed that they still had to perform their ritual works to be saved (example circumcision). In Acts 15, Peter declared that circumcision was no longer required for salvation. We are saved by grace, not works. When Paul refers to "works," he is also referring to any type of work where we attempt to obligate God and make him a debtor to us. The Jews were attempting to do this in their rigid system of law.
Paul is teaching that, with the death and resurrection of Christ, the Father has invited us into the system of grace where we now can have a gracious relationship with God. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not works of law. However, once we transition from the condemnation of the law into the system of grace (Rom 5:1-5), we must add works to our faith. We are not justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Thus, there is a distinction between "works of law" and "good works." The former are done in a system of law which cannot save us, and the latter are performed in a system of grace by which we are saved. If we approach God with faith in Christ that He is our Father and will reward us not because He is obligated but out of His sheer benevolence, we please Him in a system of grace and He will save us. If we approach God impersonally and try to obligate him to reward us for our works, He will condemn us. The distinction is "law" versus "grace." This permeates Paul's teaching on justification.
Let me try to explain,the difference is that Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. When Paul speaks of works, he is generally referring to "works of law" (read also Galatians) which refer to works done under the Mosaic law. The Jews believed that they still had to perform their ritual works to be saved (example circumcision). In Acts 15, Peter declared that circumcision was no longer required for salvation. We are saved by grace, not works. When Paul refers to "works," he is also referring to any type of work where we attempt to obligate God and make him a debtor to us. The Jews were attempting to do this in their rigid system of law.
Paul is teaching that, with the death and resurrection of Christ, the Father has invited us into the system of grace where we now can have a gracious relationship with God. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not works of law. However, once we transition from the condemnation of the law into the system of grace (Rom 5:1-5), we must add works to our faith. We are not justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Thus, there is a distinction between "works of law" and "good works." The former are done in a system of law which cannot save us, and the latter are performed in a system of grace by which we are saved. If we approach God with faith in Christ that He is our Father and will reward us not because He is obligated but out of His sheer benevolence, we please Him in a system of grace and He will save us. If we approach God impersonally and try to obligate him to reward us for our works, He will condemn us. The distinction is "law" versus "grace." This permeates Paul's teaching on justification.
You are twisting James chapter 2. You can not isolate verse 24. Verse 18 puts 24 in context. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works". Chapter 2 is all about works proving true faith.
You also try to make the distinction between law and grace. Calming grace allows our works to achieve justification???? You miss what grace is. Grace is unmerited favor. You do nothing to receive it. That means if baptism and the 2nd planks of justification merit(which in RCC they do) justification..... Grace is not present.....it is no longer grace. That is work. You have earned your justification.
McCree, I'm not twisting any verse, your understanding is off from the way the early Christians understood.If you read the book of Romans (especially chapters 3 and 4), Paul repeatedly talks about how we are no longer justified by "works of the law" (Rom. 3:20,28). These works included all of the legal, moral and ceremonial edicts of the Old Covenant. These laws have been superseded by the laws of the New Covenant. However, while we are no longer under law from a legal standpoint, we must still follow their godly principles, including the moral precepts of the Ten Commandments. This is why Paul can say "the doers of the law will be justified" (Rom. 2:13) and "the law is holy" (Rom. 7:12). Paul is referring to the principles of the law, not the letter of the law.
Again I emphasize that we are no longer under the "letter' of the law, but are under the "principle" of the law. This is the New Covenant, which is the '' law of Christ" { Gal.6: 2} It has retained all that was good and holy in the O Covenant and has perfected those laws.
Again I emphasize that we are no longer under the "letter' of the law, but are under the "principle" of the law. This is the New Covenant, which is the '' law of Christ" { Gal.6: 2} It has retained all that was good and holy in the O Covenant and has perfected those laws.
Yes, we are not justified by works. Why does the RCC use works to earn justification?
Baptism is a physical act that gets you justification, per RCC. Once/if you lose it, you must get it back through penance and sacraments. More physical acts. Those are works and payment is justification. Grace is not present in any of this. You have done thing to merit justification.
Who is <<twisting any verse>>?
It is you who say, <<no longer>> when there is not written in any verse, <<no longer>> as if <justify> before was any different!
Catholics are lying twisters of God's verses!
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...and no where in this statement did you offer proof for your interpretation of James 2. Christians obeying the law of Christ is irrelevant to receive try saving faith.
Faith = Justification+works. Our faith provides use with justification and fruits if the spirit.
Luther sums up faith nicely. "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. " meaning true faith, that brings about salvation, also brings works. Works is a true outward sign of salvation.
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Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace. But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
<<<Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification>>>
A lie.
<<<faith excludes “works of law.”>>>
An even greater lie.
<<<we are justified by “faith alone.”>>>
A completely confused lie.
<<<faith comes first.>>>
A <root> -lie.
<<<A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.>>>
An out of context lie.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
We could use a lot more Protestants - that held the view of the Protesting Catholics that left the RCC - sola scriptura, and the way that scripture predicts the coming of the Papacy.
Still there is a video where Tony Palmer and the Pope declare the end of Protestantism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA4EPOfic5A
Claims the Lutherans caved and the RCC is in full agreement with them on the issue of Justification by Faith.
Church of rome states that we CANNOT be accepted by God until we actually merit a change in our state before him, and that is through the gracing of the sacraments, so there is NOT saved by faith alone thru grace alone in that system!
And that is due to them having a false view on paul and james as regarding justification of a sinner before God...
Rome states that both of them are address same aspect of that, while its clear that Paul was speaking as to how God saves a sinner, by faith alone/grace alone, and james addresses after that happened, as the really saved needs to show forth a changed life in some fashion!
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Yeshua1, Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God's grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.
This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.
Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace).
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.
This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.
Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace).