Featured Held over in Paradise????

If your content to believe in a "paradise " that is taught no where scripture than believe it. In no place in the NT was it referring to a separate place than Heaven. Whereever Jesus ascend to in 2nd Corinthians is where the thief and Jesus are.
You want something that refutes your theory, then address the thief on the cross. Jesus's work was done before the thief died. You used it to support your paradise claim. So, if Jesus was in fact referring to something other than Heaven, why?
In 2Kings Ch. 2, Elijah was taken into heaven. Why would he be allowed in Heaven and no one else?

In Revelation John presents a picture of Heaven, new Jerusalem, and the Heavenly court. Are believers in Heaven, but were kept out of the Heavenly court until atonement? I would think your argument would be better suited towards that suggestion than paradise. The word paradise means garden. So is he referring to a place outside the heavenly court? I do not see anywhere were a paradise and a heaven are taught. I do see heaven....I do see reference to a heavenly court. Possibility that you are right Steaver, but it isn't a "paradise & Heaven"pairing. I would think that it would have to be " Heaven & heavenly court " pairing. Both which are in Heaven, the 3rd Heaven that Paul referred to. Never did the apostles or Jesus refer to 2 different places.... 2 different plains of existence for the believers.

Then again that thought process is dependent upon ones view of Revelation. I know many people who think no one is in the presence of God, even today, until the day of transfiguration.

Chances are, our minds can't grasp Heaven anyway. John most likely spoke in away that our minds can understand, which was also the only way he could communicate what he saw.

 

It is a debate forum. Nothing is wrong with debate. But does it accomplish anything other than divide the forum. Posts on both sides get laced with underlying personal shots. It seems that we just try to be right and win....as opposed to growing. It is all about the tone of words. BW318 agreed with you and you jumped on her for a belief that was unrelated to the OP. This is covenant view or even eschatology view. Not Calvinist issue. Not a soteriology issue. Calvinist can believe either way on this. BW318 is free to her opinion without compromising her sotoriology view.

 

Hold tight Steaver....I got to get one of my sons to Preschool and run some errands. I will talk atonement when I get back. I feel that is the point of thread anyway.... Not necessarily the topic paradise.

 

I agree the point was never about paradise. He was just trying to present a gotcha situation for Calvinist. I think that is why he jumped on me because I didn't play the part of the Calvinist like he wanted.

 

McCree79

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Correct...Now it is a debate board so this can happen....as opposing views do not mesh together.

This Also is CORRECT:thumbsup:
THE STEAVER HAS IT ALL COVERED:laugh:
he will also answer for you...projecting from his mind those things he thinks you might mean:thumbsup:

YES:thumbsup: She had to be instructed on what steaver thinks she really believes or should believe....even if......she never suggested such a thing!

Well...I can not answer for steaver....but as a neutral observer it would seem that there was an agenda at work here.Steaver feels it is part of the good works that were ordained for him.
he said that in his thank you thread;

 

Could they go straight into presense of God before Jesus came and died and resurrected though?

Some who are calvinists would see God as somehow remitting their sins, not holding them against them, just as he does infants and mentally challenged even today, and that they were regenerated but not filled with the Holy spirit as all of us now under the mew Covenant are in christ..

 

Alright sir.....

Atonement did occur in the OT, however imperfect it was. Lev 16:3-6....all of Christ 16 in fact is a good read. Lev 17:11 refers to OT blood atonement as well. This system was far from imperfect, and was just a shadow of the atonement Christ would provide.... But it was an atonement none the less. It was limited, narrow, and provided no lasting effect. Which is why it had to be repeated. However, it doe not change the fact that this sacrificial system was God's gracious gift to his people. A shadow of the final and perfect sacrifice of Christ. God himself ordained the procedure whereby his people where reconciled to him.

* One more point to add. The law assumes atonement and forgiveness occur by means of legislated sacrifice; however last years sacrifice does not cover this year's sins. Thus a permanent sacrifice was needed to permanently deal with sin.

 

Where did Enoch & Elijah end up after being taken up?

 

The Best Western. Waiting for the crucifixion

This is a joke by the way

 

I was thinking along the lines of Golden Corrall...

 

Very good point though. I brought Elijah up in post #21 as well. I haven't looked at Hebrew words, but the ESV translated it as Heaven. So, does the NLT, HCSB, NKJV and KJV(1900)

 

Paranoid? No
Frustrated? Now that is just funny.
I find this whole exchange amusing. You come on here with what you thought was a gotcha question or point, I cone along tell you I agree with your point and am still a Calvinist and then you get all worked up since you can't seem to believe you could have any common ground with a Calvinist. Are we really so horrible in your mind that there can be no common ground?
I also find it amusing that you declare you have pointed out all the supposed contradictions of Calvinism in this tread when all you have really done is try to get me to reconcile the 2 points you presented that I agreed with, meaning there was nothing for me to reconcile much to your annoyance it would seem.

 

No what you don't understand is that the idea of Paradise does not affect my soteriology. Now I will admit I'm a weird one with having my dispensationalists leanings and also being a Calvinist but I'm OK with that. Although I will admit that I think over time I will lean less and less dispensationalists and more and more Convenient as that seems to be the Journey I'm on. Just like I started Wesleyan and have moved completely out of that camp.

 

She understands very well. She rejects your man centered theology for the biblical one.
You are a legend in your mind, but have not proven anything in here at all.

:laugh::laugh: really destroyed:laugh: