What is first? Life or Faith?

[The Biblicist]

"Regeneration must precede faith. This, though assumed as a certain fact, may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ" —Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners"

It is not "assumed" but is greek grammar in 1 John 5:1 where the aorist tense "born" shows a punctiliar completed action prior to the present tense participle "believeth." The KJV translates it as a present "is" showing identical action but the completed action of the aorist tense "born" logically and grammatically precedes the present tense "believeth."

 

[jonathan.borland]

It is not "assumed" but is greek grammar in 1 John 5:1 where the aorist tense "born" shows a punctiliar completed action prior to the present tense participle "believeth." The KJV translates it as a present "is" showing identical action but the completed action of the aorist tense "born" logically and grammatically precedes the present tense "believeth."

This verse doesn't prove what you want it to. First of all, whenever John uses the substantival participial form of the verb "believe," he always (or almost always) uses it in the present tense with the meaning "he who believes," "he who continues to believe," or simply "a believer." Second, oops (!), the "is born" verb you're referring to is not aorist, but perfect, not that it matters. The sense is simply that all who believe have been born of God, without any reference to the time of being born again in relation to the time of believing. Without any additional language, the actual time of believer's "regeneration" is irrelevant to the author's point, only that those who are believers have been born of God (and still are), whether they were born (again) before or after the point their saving belief began. But other passages like John 1:12 are very clear, that God gave the power to be born again (or to be born of God, 1:13) to those who believe (=receive Jesus), NOT that God gave the power to believe to those who are born again. And thus believing -- in a very clear passage -- precedes (both grammatically and logically) being born again.

 

[The Biblicist]

This verse doesn't prove what you want it to. First of all, whenever John uses the substantival participial form of the verb "believe," he always (or almost always) uses it in the present tense with the meaning "he who believes," "he who continues to believe," or simply "a believer." Second, oops (!), the "is born" verb you're referring to is not aorist, but perfect, not that it matters. The sense is simply that all who believe have been born of God, without any reference to the time of being born again in relation to the time of believing. Without any additional language, the actual time of believer's "regeneration" is irrelevant to the author's point, only that those who are believers have been born of God (and still are), whether they were born (again) before or after the point their saving belief began. But other passages like John 1:12 are very clear, that God gave the power to be born again (or to be born of God, 1:13) to those who believe (=receive Jesus), NOT that God gave the power to believe to those who are born again. And thus believing -- in a very clear passage -- precedes (both grammatically and logically) being born again.

Yes, you are correct about the tense. I was going on memory and it is a perfect tense. However, all you have given is your opinion. It can be interpreted exactly as I have said.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Positional Sanctification was not in view, but repentance and the fact that believers will continue to repent of their sin even after salvation.

You are confusing progressive justification which has to do with SINS with initial justification justification which has to do with the gospel. The latter is a completed action whereas the former is never completed until glorification.

Again, we are not talking about the believer's experience, but the natural man. There is no confusion on positional and progressive sanctification or justification. Both are irrelevant to the natural man until they actually take place, at which time we begin a discussion about the progressive nature of salvation.

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Not sure I would agree with the term "Gospel repentance." What is the basis for this term?

"repent and believe the gospel"???

Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than from the Gospel.

Originally Posted by Darrell C

John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


This assures us that the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving.

The "world" here refers to the Gentiles or all nations, races, genders and classes of people as in Romans 11:11 or the ministry to the elect of all tribes, nations, genders and classes.

And unless you want to say that the Gentiles, races, and genders and classes of people are all saved then my point stands.

Let me ask you...were you saved apart from the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter?


Was there something in your natural ability that allowed you to understand the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel?

Originally Posted by Darrell C
So you take an Arminian view that men have the ability to comprehend the spiritual things of God?

Of course any rational human being can understand sentences, grammar and statements in the bible. The Bible does not deny mental comprehension of the Word of God or spiritual things.

It absolutely does:


1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



2 Thessalonians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



I would also point out that in the letters to the Churches, the call to overcome (be saved) comes from...the Spirit of God, Who also speaks here:


Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


While the Spirit, the Comforter, works through the Church (believers), He is not dependent upon us as we are of Him. He can bring about godly sorrow which works repentance without our help. He is the Helper, not we.

No man is saved apart from the Spirit of God revealing that which in his natural condition he is blind to, namely the truth concerning his condition, the remedy...the Gospel.

I know lost people who know the bible and theology better than many saved people.

Actually you do not, because the natural man, though he can put on a good show of knowledge of spiritual things...cannot receive the spiritual things of God. Only in a state of enlightenment for the purpose of salvation do we see the natural man comprehend. He then responds one of two ways: receiving or rejecting. Neither are set and determined responses unless that individual dies in the state of rejection, though there is a line in which rejecters cross in which God will refrain from speaking to their hearts. It is not God subjecting them to eternal separation, it is a withdrawal of the opportunity to be saved.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

What 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to is to the framework of thinking. For example, take a 500 peice puzzle. Anyone can see and understand that a puzzle peice is a puzzle piece, its color, size, shape. However, unless they have a framework for placing that puzzel peice it makes no sense to them.

That is exactly correct and applies to all that are natural.

That is why most first find the corner peices and straight edged peices in order to provide a framework to make sense of that peice. Lost people do not have a spiritual framework to fit spiritual things into their thinking so they make sense to them.

This implies men saving themselves, rationalizing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Doesn't work that way.

The natural man remains blind to the Truth and cannot within his own abilities put the mystery (not the puzzle) together. They could not do this prior to the Comforter's coming nor can they do it now that He has come for this purpose.

They understand the grammar, words, sentence struture and what is being said, they just don't have a spiritual framework for it to make sense to their own experience.

The Gospel is not something the natural man pieces together. It must be revealed. That is how revelation has always worked. God initiates revelation always.

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
One is not regenerated apart from repentance, thus it must precede regeneration.

The term "repent" translates a greek term that means "change of mind." The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah said "O God, turn us and we shall be turned." God is doing the turning but if He is we are turning and experiencing it.

Note they cry out to God to turn them.

We can liken the new birth to physical birth, both of which we play no role whatsoever in. We did not arrange the circumstances of our physical birth, nor do we arrange the circumstances of regeneration.

We experience both, but that does not mean we played a part.

The intellect of the lost man is in a state of unbelief and needs to be changed to belief - there is no middle stage between unbelief and belief - you are either one or the other.

Agree for the most part, but there can be an internal struggle before one turn to Christ in positive response to the Comforter's Ministry. This would be that middle ground you deny. The natural man has been shown the truth, believes it, and may have even repented, but until he or she actually turns to Christ in faith they remain natural.

Therefore, the CHANGE is instantaneous.

Agree wholeheartedly.

The affections of the lost man are in a state of enmity against God, love sin, hate light and must be CHANGED to love light and hate darkness. There is no middle twilight zone, you are either one or the others.

I agree with the first statement, that is certainly true, however when the Comforter ministers to people the response may not be immediate.

This is illustrated by God's withdrawal of opportunity to those who would not receive the Gospel:


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


For not to obey the Gospel they must have heard it. Implied by the fact that natural men are blind to the truth Someone has to show it to them. That Someone is the Comforter.

I have presented verses to this effect before with no response but if you want to follow it further let me know.

The will of the lost man is in a state of rebellion against God and is not subject to the Law of God, the gospel of God and neither indeed can be and must be CHANGED to submission. There is no middle ground, you are either in rebellion or in submission.

And before submission is possible one must know what they submit to, which is their condition and the remedy. Sin (because they are unbelievers), righteousness (that they are not and only Christ is), and judgment (the fear of Hell, eternal separation...is a good motivator).

That there is a middle ground in the sense of final eternal destiny is a basic principle of Scripture which motivates us, you and me...to witness. Those being ministered to may be in that middle ground and while someone may be destined to be saved the question is...when? That men can struggle against God is something we see throughout Scripture.

I think Paul is a good example of the middle-ground subject:


Acts 9:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


In His conversion we see the Lord ministering to him.

The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is "doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace," for which there is more severe punishment than that which will be received by those who rejected "Moses Law," or, the First Covenant (Covenant of Law).

The revealing ministry of the Spirit of God runs throughout Scripture, it is the nature of revelation itself that we have to distinguish from Age to Age:


Acts 7:51

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.



No man can claim Christ is his Lord apart from he Holy Spirit:


1 Corinthians 12:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


The Ministry of the Spirit of God to the hearts of men, again, runs throughout the history of the Bible. The neglect of how God ministers to men has caused many to overlook the significance of the Coming of the Comforter and the specific ministry of revealing the Gospel to men.

Regeneration is the CHANGE as it removes the OLD heart and gives you a NEW heart that is believing, is submissive, is loving light. Your experience of that change is called repentance.
__________________

Repentance leads to regeneration, not the other way around. When we are born again we do not dwell in a state of repentance but are filled with the joy of our salvation, which is why I mentioned that repentance does not end with positional sanctification. It is part of progressive sanctification, for as we become aware of the sin in our lives repentance leads to the removal of that sin. But we cannot know anything, whether believer or natural, until God shows it to us. He does not inundate a new believer with their sins all at once but even as we raise up children there is a gradual instruction according to the ability of the believer.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than from the Gospel.

You are repeating the same thing - make no sense! They are not repenting from believing the gospel, they are repenting of sin (unbelief is a sin) and believing in the gospel.

And unless you want to say that the Gentiles, races, and genders and classes of people are all saved then my point stands.

That is my point - they are the elect. He is referring to the ministry of the Spirit among the elect from all races, and genders, classes of people. For God so loved "the world" - all classes, all races, all genders demonstrated by actually saving them - the elect.

Was there something in your natural ability that allowed you to understand the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel?

You are simply proving my point! The ministry of the Comforter is sent to God's elect and those who shall be heirs of salvation.

It absolutely does:


1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Pleaseeeeeee! reread my analogy of the puzzle and try to understand the point I made, as it is clear you have no clue what I said or you would not be responding this way.

Are you seriously telling me that a rational human being cannot read, or comprehend what they are reading???? The problem of fallen man is not the inability to read or comprehend what they are reading. The problem is they have no spiritual experiential framework (no new birth) that can identify with what they are reading. They understand the words, the statements, but they have nothing in them to identify with what they are reading and so it makes no practical sense to them. They can theoretically understand what they are reading but they cannot experientially understand what they are reading.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C

Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than from the Gospel.

You are repeating the same thing - make no sense! They are not repenting from believing the gospel, they are repenting of sin (unbelief is a sin) and believing in the gospel.

Yes I see that, lol. The last should have said by the Gospel.


"Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than by the Gospel."

Originally Posted by Darrell C
And unless you want to say that the Gentiles, races, and genders and classes of people are all saved then my point stands.

That is my point - they are the elect.

Yet the primary point is that they are unbelieving and the Comforter is ministering to them.

While elect they are not born again when they come under the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. Certainly He ministers to all the families of the earth.

He is referring to the ministry of the Spirit among the elect from all races, and genders, classes of people. For God so loved "the world" - all classes, all races, all genders demonstrated by actually saving them - the elect.

The Elect are natural until they are born again. That is the focus.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Was there something in your natural ability that allowed you to understand the spiritual things of God, namely the Gospel?

You are simply proving my point! The ministry of the Comforter is sent to God's elect and those who shall be heirs of salvation.

That is not what this...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




And by your own testimony you acknowledge that the unbelieving here represent all families of the earth.

We are born separated from God and the Life of God, which is eternal. There is only one remedy and that is through faith in Christ, and specifically His death, burial, and resurrection.


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
It absolutely does:


1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Pleaseeeeeee! reread my analogy of the puzzle and try to understand the point I made, as it is clear you have no clue what I said or you would not be responding this way.

The analogy is addressed in detail so it would be necessary to address the response to affirm the charge of not comprehending what was said.

Are you seriously telling me that a rational human being cannot read, or comprehend what they are reading????

Not at all. What I am saying is that the natural man, though he can have a basic understanding of the concepts, cannot fully fathom the Word of God unto salvation apart from God revealing it as truth to him or her.

That is just a basic Bible Truth. If you want to present a case that natural man, in opposition of the teaching of Scripture, can receive and understand the spiritual things of God, then by all means...do so.

The question I have to ask is why one would want to do that. I can understand the Arminian doing so because it is a root belief of their particular system of theology (though few present a historical Arminian view and more present a cruder version).

If you believe that God has given the natural man this ability then this falls in with an Arminian view regardless of when God gave the natural man this ability.

The problem of fallen man is not the inability to read or comprehend what they are reading. The problem is they have no spiritual experiential framework (no new birth) that can identify with what they are reading.

That is because in order to understand the spiritual things of God one must either have it revealed to them (such as Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God) or they must be united with the Spirit of God directly.

Prior to that men are dead spiritually and without union with God. Salvation restores the union lost between man and God and the indwelling is the direct cause of the new birth and everything associated with it. We have a new heart and spirit because the Spirit of God impacts our very being.

Paul makes it clear:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



We are saved specifically by the washing of regeneration (new birth, and cleansing as stated in Ezekiel 36:25) and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Focus on that renewing: did we have the Holy Ghost prior to conversion? No, it was lost in the Fall.


The natural man cannot receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, that is not up for debate.

They understand the words, the statements, but they have nothing in them to identify with what they are reading and so it makes no practical sense to them.

That is correct, because they are dead and without ability to understand. It must be revealed to them.

The argument offered does not correspond to this statement:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist

Originally Posted by Darrell C
So you take an Arminian view that men have the ability to comprehend the spiritual things of God?

Of course any rational human being can understand sentences, grammar and statements in the bible. The Bible does not deny mental comprehension of the Word of God or spiritual things.

They can theoretically understand what they are reading but they cannot experientially understand what they are reading.

And it is necessary that one understand the Gospel to be saved. That is the only way one can believe what is revealed, repent of their sins. believe that Christ died in their stead, and place their faith in Him. That is precisely what Christ meant here:


John 6:49-55

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes I see that, lol. The last should have said by the Gospel.


"Fair enough, but it seems to me to hint at repentance from the Gospel, rather than by the Gospel."




Yet the primary point is that they are unbelieving and the Comforter is ministering to them.

While elect they are not born again when they come under the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. Certainly He ministers to all the families of the earth.




The Elect are natural until they are born again. That is the focus.




That is not what this...


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




And by your own testimony you acknowledge that the unbelieving here represent all families of the earth.

We are born separated from God and the Life of God, which is eternal. There is only one remedy and that is through faith in Christ, and specifically His death, burial, and resurrection.


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.





The analogy is addressed in detail so it would be necessary to address the response to affirm the charge of not comprehending what was said.




Not at all. What I am saying is that the natural man, though he can have a basic understanding of the concepts, cannot fully fathom the Word of God unto salvation apart from God revealing it as truth to him or her.

That is just a basic Bible Truth. If you want to present a case that natural man, in opposition of the teaching of Scripture, can receive and understand the spiritual things of God, then by all means...do so.

The question I have to ask is why one would want to do that. I can understand the Arminian doing so because it is a root belief of their particular system of theology (though few present a historical Arminian view and more present a cruder version).

If you believe that God has given the natural man this ability then this falls in with an Arminian view regardless of when God gave the natural man this ability.




That is because in order to understand the spiritual things of God one must either have it revealed to them (such as Peter's confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God) or they must be united with the Spirit of God directly.

Prior to that men are dead spiritually and without union with God. Salvation restores the union lost between man and God and the indwelling is the direct cause of the new birth and everything associated with it. We have a new heart and spirit because the Spirit of God impacts our very being.

Paul makes it clear:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



We are saved specifically by the washing of regeneration (new birth, and cleansing as stated in Ezekiel 36:25) and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Focus on that renewing: did we have the Holy Ghost prior to conversion? No, it was lost in the Fall.


The natural man cannot receive nor understand the spiritual things of God, that is not up for debate.





That is correct, because they are dead and without ability to understand. It must be revealed to them.

The argument offered does not correspond to this statement:






And it is necessary that one understand the Gospel to be saved. That is the only way one can believe what is revealed, repent of their sins. believe that Christ died in their stead, and place their faith in Him. That is precisely what Christ meant here:


John 6:49-55

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


God bless.

We are simply by passing each other and arguing where there is no argument.

The elect are unbelievers until they are regenerated and so the Comforter is sent to them in their state of unbelief.

You are saying in your last post exactly what I said in my analogy of framework. Of course I don't believe the natural man has spiritual abilities because he is "natural" and not "spiritual." He can read and he can RATIONALLY comprehend what he is reading but he cannot make sense of it in regard to himself and his own experience. He is void of any spiritual framework for it to make sense to himself or his experience, because he is spiritually dead.

 

[Darrell C]

We are simply by passing each other and arguing where there is no argument.

The elect are unbelievers until they are regenerated and so the Comforter is sent to them in their state of unbelief.

You are saying in your last post exactly what I said in my analogy of framework. Of course I don't believe the natural man has spiritual abilities because he is "natural" and not "spiritual." He can read and he can RATIONALLY comprehend what he is reading but he cannot make sense of it in regard to himself and his own experience. He is void of any spiritual framework for it to make sense to himself or his experience, because he is spiritually dead.

And this I can agree with.

Hope you and everyone have a great day and a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Where in verses 14-16 does he every say "this is how" to be born again? He says no such thing. Indeed, he says the very opposite in verses 17-21 and concludes that anyone who does COME (believe in) the light is merely evidence of a prior work "wrought in God" = new birth.

I believe that is your assumption. In the previous verses (1-13), Jesus left no instruction manual for Nicodemus. He is not told "how to be born again," simply that he must be born again. In fact, that statement is emphasized three different times. Finally, in verse 14, he goes to an OT example where he clearly demonstrates what Nicodemus must do.

You are confusing regenerative life with life by justification. Regenerative life has to do with changing your SPIRITUAL condition from "dead in sins" to being spiritually "quickened" (made alive spiritually). Life by justification is the reversal of your LEGAL POSITION from the PENALTY of EVERLASTING DEATH to the reverse of that judgement or declaration of ETERNAL LIFE.

Salvation is very simple. Do you think Nicodemus would have had a grasp of all of these theological terms? Not a chance!
Secondly, salvation is an event, not a process. You are describing it as a process. I believe that is serious biblical error. The things you describe above, apart from hearing the gospel, all take place at the same time, which makes most of which you say moot. Salvation is event and regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. all take place the moment one puts their faith in Christ. You are simply describing the ordo salutis which any Bible Encyclopedia will tell you is different depending on your theological position. You lean toward a Calvinistic position and therefore put regeneration first. I don't. Yet salvation is still an event and not a process.

Think about it. The lost unregenerate SPIRITUAL STATE is not the consequence but the cause for Judicial condemnation to eternal death is it not. You would never say that you are condemned in order to become spiritually dead because you were born spiritually dead as your spiritual condition and then the manifestation of sin brings you under the legal condemnation and penalty of death by the Law.

Likewise, the justification by faith for the change from legal condemnation with the legal penalty of eternal death is due to the spiritual change from the condition of spiritual death to spiritual life. Legal life is the manifestation of spiritual life, as spiritual life is the cause and legal life the consequence but simultaneous action in regard to time.

There is no argument that we are justified by faith (Rom.5:1)
We are saved by faith (John 3:16), which is at the end of a discussion about regeneration. Faith is the key to our salvation. Justification and regeneration take place simultaneously.

Jesus clearly taught a PRESENT SPIRITUAL kingdom within a present professing kingdom throughout the parables on the kingdom. In the Sermon on the Mount the first beattidues have to do with what you "ARE" not what you do. The concluding beattitudes are consequences of what you "ARE" rather than doing such things to become what you ARE NOT! Think about it. Matthew 12-13 clearly teach a present spiritual kingdom or rule of God within man where the tree must first be made good BEFORE the fruit can be good. The "strong man" or "evil spirit" must first be bound and cast out before good can be done. The heart must first be made good before it can do good. One must first have a "good" heart (only one soil was "good") or else they cannot be the "good seed". If you think the new birth or in the INTERNAL RULE of God did not exist at this time then why tell Nicodemus that he must be born again and what is born again is not PHYSICAL but SPIRTUAL????

That doesn't mean Nicodemus understood it.
CONTEXT:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--The only kingdom that Nicodemus would have been thinking about was that physical kingdom described by the prophets of the OT, the same kingdom inquired of by Christ's disciples in Acts 1:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Wrong! Here is the right way of saying it "so it is with every true child of God. The gospel comes first EXTERNALLY. The internal CREATIVE WORK of God produces a believing heart second, which is manifested by a confession of faith.

It is not wrong. The gospel always comes first, and in fact, must come first.
It is necessary for one to be born again through the Word of God.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Without the gospel there is no new birth. That is made clear by Peter.

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Where does faith come from? It comes from the Word God. These things are stated clearly in God's Word. They cannot be refuted.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--Note: The gospel was first declared unto them, and they received it.
It was that gospel by which they were saved.
Then Paul goes on in verses 3 and 4 and tells us very plainly to tell us what that gospel is. It is the gospel by which we are saved (which includes regeneration).

This internal creative work of God you speak of may refer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in convicting a sinner of sin, but that is all. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is described here:
Joh 16:8-11
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--That is the present ministry of the Holy Spirit.
We come as sinners to Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but does not regenerate until by faith we put our trust in Christ.

Wrong again! For example, think through what I am about to explain to you. To "repent" literally means a "change of mind."

That is what I already said to you.

The intellect is in unbelief and thus the change is to belief. The affections are in love with sin and hate the light, therefore, repentance is a change of affections from love of sin to love of light. The will is in resistance and thus repentance is a change of will from resistance to submission. YOU do not affect that change, as this is a completely internal change by the power of God. Repentance is merely the simulataneous experience as there is no middle ground between unbelief and belief, or resistance and submission or love of darkness and love of light. This is the act of God whereby one is "CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" and YOU cannot create anything and yet you cannot be "IN CHRIST" without faith can you? Can you? Hence, faith is part and parcel consequence of that CREATIVE work of God.

I don't disagree with that. That is what salvation is all about.
Repentance and faith go together. The result is both regeneration and salvation which all happen at the same time. No need to slice and dice everything all up. It is an event not a process.
Would you ever tell an unsaved person this is what is going to happen to you first; be ready for it: regeneration is going to hit you first, then bang justification is going follow right after, then beware of that sanctification, it follows fast on its heels. Really?
It is an event.
Nicodemus wasn't a saved person. When he believed (vss.14 ff. then regeneration, etc.) happened. But the truth is, the Bible gives no indication of when he became a believer or was regenerated.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe that is your assumption. In the previous verses (1-13), Jesus left no instruction manual for Nicodemus.

There is no instruction manual on how to be born again here or anywhere else in Scripture because it is a creative work of God which NO MAN CAN DO or HELP DO.

Salvation is very simple. Do you think Nicodemus would have had a grasp of all of these theological terms?

Where did I say he did? He is a lost unregenerate man. I explained this for you not for Nicodemus. The experience of salvation does not need to be conditioned upon a detailed explanation of salvation even though a detailed explanation is possible and can be provided.

apart from hearing the gospel, all take place at the same time,

Here is our precise point of disagreement. I believe hearing the gospel occurs "at the same time." The reason you do not is because you believe the EXTERNAL preaching of the gospel is one and the same as the INTERNALIZATION of that gospel. I believe the EXTERNAL preaching of the gospel occurs first, but apart from God making it His INTERNALIZED CREATIVE WORD OF POWER no salvation occurs to anyone merely EXTERNALLY exposed to the gospel or word (2 Cor. 4:6). The INTERNALIZATION of the gospel occurs simultaneously with regeneration/conversion as it is the CREATIVE POWER behind the INTERNALIZATION of the gospel that creates a new belieiving heart in the very thing that created it.

Faith is the key to our salvation. Justification and regeneration take place simultaneously.

Quickening is "through" faith not DUE TO faith. The key is God's POWER behind the gospel that creates faith and that completed creative act is described "For we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" - Quickening IN PART is the creation of faith in Christ that is why the work of quickening which is a CREATIVE WORK, which no human being can be a participant in, is quickening that results "IN CHRIST".

That doesn't mean Nicodemus understood it.

Again, Nicodemus is a spiritually dead unregenerate man who has no spiritual framework to associate anything spirituallly. This goes for the entire nation as a whole at the time of Christ. They were religious apostates who have left the truths clearly taught by the Prophets. His understanding does not change the clear teachings of Christ of a spiritual kingdom.

--The only kingdom that Nicodemus would have been thinking about was that physical kingdom described by the prophets of the OT, the same kingdom inquired of by Christ's disciples in Acts 1:

Your making the limited understanding of Christ's audiance determine what Christ taught and that is flawed logic. If we followed that logic then Christ could have never taught anything in Matthew 5, 12-13 due to the limitations of his UNREGENERATE spiritually DEAD unbelieving audiance. Surely, you can see the flaw in following that kind of logic, as the conclusion is that Christ could NEVER teach anything his audiance did not know already, or were capable of understanding.

It is not wrong. The gospel always comes first, and in fact, must come first.
It is necessary for one to be born again through the Word of God.

Yes, it is wrong, because I never denied the gospel did not come first, I only denied the EXTERNAL preaching of the gospel saves anyone as it must be INTERNALIZED and that can only be done if God ENERGIZES it as His creative word that provides internal REVELATION of Christ as in Matthew 16:17; Gal. 1:15-16; 2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; etc. Both occur previous to regeneration but the former does not save anyone APART FROM the latter.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Where does faith come from? It comes from the Word God. These things are stated clearly in God's Word. They cannot be refuted.

The term "word" is rhema which MAY mean "word of command" and that is precisely what it means here as Paul explicitly states "For God who COMMANDED" (2 Cor. 4;6) in regard to the INTERNALIZATION of the gospel.

Moreover, the immediate context Romans 10:17-11:6 demands this also. The word of command by preachers avails NOTHING (Rom. 10:18-29). It is the word of command by God which attains it (Rom. 11:1-6).

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--Note: The gospel was first declared unto them, and they received it.
It was that gospel by which they were saved.
Then Paul goes on in verses 3 and 4 and tells us very plainly to tell us what that gospel is. It is the gospel by which we are saved (which includes regeneration).

AGain, there is no controversy that the gospel ALWAYS must come first but just "NOT IN WORD ONLY but ALSO" or but in addition to that, it must come "in power" by the command of God (2 Cor. 4:6).

 

[The Biblicist]

This internal creative work of God you speak of may refer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in convicting a sinner of sin, but that is all. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is described here:
Joh 16:8-11
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--That is the present ministry of the Holy Spirit.
We come as sinners to Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but does not regenerate until by faith we put our trust in Christ.

I have separate this part from your post for special treatment. As Skandalon claims there is a need of "contextualization" in order to understand the term "world" in the Jewish world at that time.

1. The Pre-Christ era salvation was primarily confined within the limits of Israel

2. The Jews believed that salvation was of the Jews and Jesus confirmed that (Jn. 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews"

3. The early church would not preach the gospel unto anyone outside of Israel right up to Acts 11 and only then did God use proselyte Jewish believers to preach it to Antioch and Cyprus.

4. The jews believed it was unlawful for them to even enter the house of a gentile - Acts 10:29

5. The pillars of the Jewish congregation at Jerusalem claimed their ministry was to the "circumcision" (Gal. 2:9).

The term "world" used in soteriology contexts by Jews to Jews never means all human beings without exception but all human beings without distinction, which the Jew had been totally biased against and Acts 1-11 prove it.

The writers of Scripture had to repeatedly tell Jewish believers that salvation was for the "whole world" and not just the world of Jews as was the previously mindset of all Jews. To be saved you had to become a JEW in their mindset.

In John 16 the "world" refers to all classes of men, genders, nations and not to all men without exception.

Now, I know you have heard this before and you will reject it, but it does not change it from being the truth if one understands the term "world" according to contextualization.

 

[Darrell C]

For your consideration:

Originally Posted by DHK View Post
This internal creative work of God you speak of may refer to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in convicting a sinner of sin, but that is all. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is described here:
Joh 16:8-11
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--That is the present ministry of the Holy Spirit.
We come as sinners to Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but does not regenerate until by faith we put our trust in Christ.

I have separate this part from your post for special treatment. As Skandalon claims there is a need of "contextualization" in order to understand the term "world" in the Jewish world at that time.

Just as you say...

The writers of Scripture had to repeatedly tell Jewish believers that salvation was for the "whole world" and not just the world of Jews as was the previously mindset of all Jews. To be saved you had to become a JEW in their mindset.

...salvation was intended for the world as a whole, defined as "all families of the earth" to Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant looked forward to the work God would do when He established the New Covenant, which the Abrahamic Covenant was foundational to, rather than a completely disassociated Covenant. Only the Covenant of Law could be said to stand alone as a Covenant (and if demanded, the Levitical Covenant, though that is part and parcel with the (Covenant of) Law.

Paul makes it very clear that God has provided revelation to the world, but, Israel stands in special regard because they are a created people meant for relationship with Him (howbeit this relationship is temporal in nature, primarily). Secondly, they stand out because it was to them that God gave His Word:


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


This does not exclude those outside of Israel from the relationship available to men at that time. In fact, Paul makes it clear that there is no respect of persons and this is further illustrated by God's perspective concerning Gentiles who had not been exposed to the Word of God yet obeyed the internal witness given them by God, a witness given to...the world:


Romans 2:11-15

King James Version (KJV)


11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Paul has already mentioned this:


Romans 1:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Clearly men had respect of God before Israel was created. Clearly Israel was not the first people to benefit from the grace of God and receive the salvation available to men in those days. Clearly God has revealed Himself to all men without regard to Nationality.

But what has to be considered is the responsibility Israel had because...they had been given the Word of God.

Just as James states...


James 3:1

King James Version (KJV)

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


...and the writer of Hebrews rebukes...


Hebrews 5:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


...those to whom God has given His Word to will be held to a higher standard.

Such is the case with Israel. She was not the only people being "saved" (in the Old Testament sense), but was held to a higher standard because she had been entrusted with the Word of God, and like the Church today, was expected to adhere and obey the Word given them. And this was advantageous to the Jew, and was a source of both conviction and comfort. The Word of God has always been a two-edged sword.

As Skandalon claims there is a need of "contextualization" in order to understand the term "world" in the Jewish world at that time.

The "world" in view is the same world God sent His Son to. It does not exclude anyone.

Israel trusted her heritage, believing themselves to be of "The Vine" planted by God, but Christ would reveal the True Vine. Being part of Israel was to be under the umbrella of God's provision, yet that changed when Christ came to establish the true source of relationship with God which differed distinctly from that enjoyed by men, whether Jew or Gentile. To be a "Jew" spiritually (rather than externally, going through the motions, Paul being perhaps the greatest example) was to be in obedience to the Word of God (and all that entails), which Paul clarifies was possible for both Jew and Gentile.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

1. The Pre-Christ era salvation was primarily confined within the limits of Israel

Not at all. While Israel had the advantage of specific revelation, the Word of God, the internal witness given to men allowed Gentiles to obey the Law written in their hearts.

Relationship with God is always centered around obedience. Take a Pharaoh that was upset about Abraham's deceit concerning his wife. For that matter, consider Abraham, a Gentile, called the friend of God.

The Creation of Israel did not create an exclusion from relationship with God, but, Israel was at an advantage due to specific revelation. It could be said, perhaps, they were at a disadvantage from one perspective, in that they were held to that higher standard due to the knowledge they received from God.

2. The Jews believed that salvation was of the Jews and Jesus confirmed that (Jn. 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews"

We have to keep this in a proper context: Jews did not save anyone.

"Salvation is of the Jews" because it was through Israel that God intended to bring the Seed. Israel considered themselves to be the Seed, not understanding that Christ has always been the source of salvation that was to come.

Look at the statement:

Jn. 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews"

What is the reason they "knew?"

Because the Word of God had been given them. With specific revelation they did not have to fall into the error of idolatry. They were told Who they worshipped, and how they were to worship.

3. The early church would not preach the gospel unto anyone outside of Israel right up to Acts 11 and only then did God use proselyte Jewish believers to preach it to Antioch and Cyprus.

I agree there was a transitional period in which Gentile Inclusion (as opposed to the exclusive and rejecting attitude of many Jews) was clarified, but, that Inclusion is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, as well as, from a spiritual and eternal perspective, reaching all the way back into the Garden, where the true enemy, Satan, is told he will be defeated by the Seed.

Cornelius sets the perfect example of Gentile Inclusion in the Old Testament standard.

4. The jews believed it was unlawful for them to even enter the house of a gentile - Acts 10:29

They also believed it unlawful to work on the Sabbath, however, their interpretation of the Law was not accompanied by the heart of God. A rigid interpretation did not leave room for...common sense. This denotes the external quality of the "religion" of many Jews, who would put up a proper front in keeping the Law, but would likely rescue his animal from a ditch without second thought.

5. The pillars of the Jewish congregation at Jerusalem claimed their ministry was to the "circumcision" (Gal. 2:9).

And we have to consider the exclusivity of the Jewish leaders. Paul confronted Peter for playing the hypocrite, withdrawing from Gentiles he fellowshipped with until that certain came from Jerusalem. Paul has much to say about those who tried to strangle the Gospel with the Law. The Jerusalem Council had to cede to Paul's argument concerning the Gentiles, both in regard to inclusion to the Church as well as in regard to the Law.

We see here...


Acts 21:23-26

King James Version (KJV)

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.


...that Paul is instructed to prove to the Jews that he did not teach against the Law, and within this rite we see an offering being made. Consider that carefully. I am tempted to speculate Paul makes a grievous error here. I am not dogmatic about that, but, at the least we can see that the Law was to great extent still in force among the Jerusalem leadership.

Let's back up and see who is named as making this request of Paul:


Acts 21:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.


Let's back up a little further and see the event prophesied about:


Acts 21:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.


The question I would ask is...which Jews bound Paul? The leadership? Or the mob?

The point would be that Paul stood in opposition to the Gentiles being bound by the Law, but was compliant in carrying out a service within the Law. This could be interpreted as Israel maintain their heritage in the Law, but, I believe when that heritage exceeds the Gospel there is going to be consequences, and for Paul there certainly was. The Jerusalem leadership forced Paul to prove he was not out to destroy the Law, which indicates to me the close relationship they gave between Christianity and the Law which set up an exclusive party within Christianity...which is contrary to the Gospel. While separation remained for the Gentile Proselyte under the Law, God has never been a respecter of persons.

The primary necessity for man was to obey that revealed to them by God, and this was accomplished by both Jew and Gentile, both held to the standard of the revelation provided for them.

The term "world" used in soteriology contexts by Jews to Jews never means all human beings without exception but all human beings without distinction, which the Jew had been totally biased against and Acts 1-11 prove it.

The Lord was not being exclusive when He used the term "world."

And when we look at the result of the Gospel we are forced to recognize that "the world" means...the world.

All families of the earth, even as redemptive prophecy foretold.

The writers of Scripture had to repeatedly tell Jewish believers that salvation was for the "whole world" and not just the world of Jews as was the previously mindset of all Jews. To be saved you had to become a JEW in their mindset.

You had to become a "Jew" in God's mindset, lol. The problem is whose definition of "Jew" one would take. A spiritual Jew was simply one who obeyed God, and specifically...the revelation provided them.

Israel was not a mistake or a blunder on God's part. Those who were obedient fulfilled the demand of God in the relationship that was established.

The mistake of Israel was their view that being born into that relationship was good enough. That's all it took.

In John 16 the "world" refers to all classes of men, genders, nations and not to all men without exception.

It means the same thing meant in John 3:16.

God did not send His Son to certain people, but to the world. Not the world system, but the world. Again, Redemptive Prophecy points to salvation provided to all families of the earth. The defeat and destruction of Satan's power benefits...the world.

No-one will stand before God and state "But you didn't tell me!" Because God has revealed Himself to everyone, and while certain revelation is more specific than other, that leaves all...


Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Now, I know you have heard this before and you will reject it, but it does not change it from being the truth if one understands the term "world" according to contextualization.

Everyone who stands before God at the Great White Throne will be justly condemned, because they had been provided with some form of revelation by which they could have acknowledged God and fallen under obedience to that revelation.

God has never failed to speak to the first person who has been born into this world. The particular revelation given to any given individual will create the particular standard of obligation and responsibility to God, and it is that standard they will be judged by. The Old Testament Saint will not be judged according to the New Testament Saint that has a higher amount of revelation afforded them. The rejecter of the Old Testament Saint will fare better than the rejecter of revealed Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless.

 

[quantumfaith]

For your consideration:



Just as you say...



...salvation was intended for the world as a whole, defined as "all families of the earth" to Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant looked forward to the work God would do when He established the New Covenant, which the Abrahamic Covenant was foundational to, rather than a completely disassociated Covenant. Only the Covenant of Law could be said to stand alone as a Covenant (and if demanded, the Levitical Covenant, though that is part and parcel with the (Covenant of) Law.

Paul makes it very clear that God has provided revelation to the world, but, Israel stands in special regard because they are a created people meant for relationship with Him (howbeit this relationship is temporal in nature, primarily). Secondly, they stand out because it was to them that God gave His Word:


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


This does not exclude those outside of Israel from the relationship available to men at that time. In fact, Paul makes it clear that there is no respect of persons and this is further illustrated by God's perspective concerning Gentiles who had not been exposed to the Word of God yet obeyed the internal witness given them by God, a witness given to...the world:


Romans 2:11-15

King James Version (KJV)


11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Paul has already mentioned this:


Romans 1:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Clearly men had respect of God before Israel was created. Clearly Israel was not the first people to benefit from the grace of God and receive the salvation available to men in those days. Clearly God has revealed Himself to all men without regard to Nationality.

But what has to be considered is the responsibility Israel had because...they had been given the Word of God.

Just as James states...


James 3:1

King James Version (KJV)

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


...and the writer of Hebrews rebukes...


Hebrews 5:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


...those to whom God has given His Word to will be held to a higher standard.

Such is the case with Israel. She was not the only people being "saved" (in the Old Testament sense), but was held to a higher standard because she had been entrusted with the Word of God, and like the Church today, was expected to adhere and obey the Word given them. And this was advantageous to the Jew, and was a source of both conviction and comfort. The Word of God has always been a two-edged sword.





The "world" in view is the same world God sent His Son to. It does not exclude anyone.

Israel trusted her heritage, believing themselves to be of "The Vine" planted by God, but Christ would reveal the True Vine. Being part of Israel was to be under the umbrella of God's provision, yet that changed when Christ came to establish the true source of relationship with God which differed distinctly from that enjoyed by men, whether Jew or Gentile. To be a "Jew" spiritually (rather than externally, going through the motions, Paul being perhaps the greatest example) was to be in obedience to the Word of God (and all that entails), which Paul clarifies was possible for both Jew and Gentile.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

For your consideration:



Just as you say...



...salvation was intended for the world as a whole, defined as "all families of the earth" to Abraham.

Rather, the whole book of Genesis is about God choosing one person over the other. Abel over Cain, Abraham over other heathen, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his brothers, Ephraim over Manasseh, One nation (Israel) over another (Egypt, etc.). "All the families of the earth" means "all races" not "all humans without exception."

The term "world" in soteriological passages NEVER means "every human being ever born." It is generally used by Jews writing to or speaking to other Jews and means that God's plan of salvation extends beyond the Jewish world to the world of "all families of the earth" meaning all races, nations, genders, and classes of people as that is from whom the elect are called.

God knows his elect but we don't. How we find out who they are is to preach the gospel to all we come in contact with and the elect will manifest themselves through repentance and faith in the gospel.

 

[Darrell C]

Rather, the whole book of Genesis is about God choosing one person over the other. Abel over Cain, Abraham over other heathen, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Joseph over his brothers, Ephraim over Manasseh, One nation (Israel) over another (Egypt, etc.). "All the families of the earth" means "all races" not "all humans without exception."

The term "world" in soteriological passages NEVER means "every human being ever born." It is generally used by Jews writing to or speaking to other Jews and means that God's plan of salvation extends beyond the Jewish world to the world of "all families of the earth" meaning all races, nations, genders, and classes of people as that is from whom the elect are called.

God knows his elect but we don't. How we find out who they are is to preach the gospel to all we come in contact with and the elect will manifest themselves through repentance and faith in the gospel.

If this were true to the extent intended in the rebuttal then we have to say the Lord "chose" Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome...over Israel.

The "choosing" referred to deals with an individual basis rather than a national or planetary basis such as we see in the context of such passages as John 3 and 16. The choosing involved was according to the determinate Plan of Redemption which, in the context of the use of world, deals with humanity as a whole, rather than individual salvation.

I am not implying a Universal application that suggests salvation is afforded to every individual born, only noting that the opportunity for Salvation through Christ is applicable to the world as a whole.

God did not "choose" Abel over Cain, but rather Abel was obedient to the revelation provided him, Cain was not. We see Abel bring forth what is presumably a...sacrifice. This is the typical offering seen throughout Biblical History for sin, which is a primary aspect of the progression of Redemptive History. The terminology used to describe Abel's offering is similar to that found in the Law. While we do not have specific record of the command to offer up a sacrifice for sin, this is clearly what Abel did:


Genesis 4

King James Version (KJV)


2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


The offering had to have died in order for "the fat thereof" to be offered up.

We can see the Lord's hesitance to "choose" between these two in the opportunity, once again...to obey. Yet Cain chose rather to continue in disobedience unto murder of his brother.

In Abraham's case I would again caution this "choosing" as negative towards the "other heathen." The ultimate result of God's choosing of Abraham again fits into the Redemptive Plan by which the direct benefit to all families of the earth, rather than an adverse result of that choosing...comes to the world.

Isaac is an express lesson in obedience to God. The rest of the references can all be seen, in retrospect, to conform to the progressive revelation of the Redemptive Plan, and at no time was opportunity withheld from other nations or races.

Even in the lineage of Christ we see Gentile Inclusion.

It all hinges around obedience to the revelation provided during any given Age. Within those Ages there is a definite consistency of the three primary forms of revelation, internal witness, Creation, and direct revelation. Apparently Cain and Abel had direct revelation, though not specifically recorded, which mandated proper worship. Failure to obey God is also a consistent theme in regards to judgment.

And those judged are judged in accordance to the revelation provided them. The Lord does not hold one responsible for that which has not been revealed to them.

In the context of this particular discussion the focal point is really on who it is the Comforter will perform His Ministry upon.

Consider:


John 15:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


This would point out that the Comforter testifies apart from the Body of Christ.

That only leaves those outside of Christ being witnessed to, which is reiterated here:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter convicts the world, the unbelieving world, and we cannot mistake the Lord's use of "World" here. It does not speak of an exclusive group but simply the world.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And I would just add that placing...


Romans 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


...in an individual context, rather than a national context...is a mistake.

I take the position that rather than God being viewed as a respecter of persons in regards to Jacob and Esau as individuals, in view is the Lord distinguishing between Israel and Edom on a national basis. This and the following two chapters can be seen as an address on a national basis rather than individual, and I see no reason to make the exception with this particularly abused quote, which violates God's character.


God bless.

 

[quantumfaith]

I too am not advocating a universalism, but what I was agreeing to in you post is the following:

I am not implying a Universal application that suggests salvation is afforded to every individual born, only noting that the opportunity for Salvation through Christ is applicable to the world as a whole.

I might add that my position is that salvation is freely available to all.

 

[Darrell C]

I too am not advocating a universalism, but what I was agreeing to in you post is the following:

I am not implying a Universal application that suggests salvation is afforded to every individual born, only noting that the opportunity for Salvation through Christ is applicable to the world as a whole.

I might add that my position is that salvation is freely available to all.

I would agree with this for the most part but one of the things that I feel needs to be clarified in salvation is that while salvation is available to all that opportunity is entirely at the discretion of God in regards to timing.

Unlike a typical Armenian view where men have within their nature the ability to comprehend spiritual things of God, I take the view that it is not until the Ministering of the Comforter that the natural man is enlightened to the point that he can believe, repent, and turn to Christ in faith. I agree this is not only free to all but that all will come under enlightening to some extent or the other within their lifetime, meaning no man will be held without fault for actively rejecting the revelation God provides.

The distinction to make, though, is that we maintain a position that men are not born having a capacity to understand the spiritual things of God, particularly in regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All men can be obedient to the internal witness God places within them, or that seen in Creation, but an understanding of the Gospel of Christ is tied so closely to the Comforter's Ministry that apart from that Ministry men remain without understanding on a salvific level.

The opportunity is universal in the sense that it is available where-so-ever the Gospel is preached and the Comforter ministers.

Another aspect I feel is important is distinguishing only those born again as "Christians." While those obedient to God's witness can escape eternal separation from God because of obedience to that revealed to them, that does not mean that this makes them "Christian." This does not mean they are born again. While I would not exclude such a possibility outside of the framework of God's power and grace, I think it unlikely myself. The New Birth is reliant upon the specific revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is ministered by the Comforter.

We do not see new birth and indwelling in the New Covenant sense as attainable by any other way.


God bless.