BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is from a thread started by a devoted Catholic claiming that no Bible verse is opposed to bowing down before images and serving those that they represent.
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Christians not commanded to refrain from bowing before images?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Those who embrace Roman Catholicism with all its heretical teachings are not servants of God but of the papacy and the teaching magisterium. Therefore, they make obeisance to statues, popes, cardinals, and worship Mary whom many desire to become the fourth member of the Godhead.
Comphehension difficulties ? MoreCoffee View Post
Oh, so bowing bothers some folk eh?
Best not tell any Japanese or Korean folk ...
MoreCoffee was stating: Best not tell any Japanese or Korean folk...
Nothing to do with Catholics. Besides, Catholics only pray to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, period, get it yet. And why shouldn't they, after all it was the Catholic Church that coined the word "Trinity "
Oh, so bowing bothers some folk eh?
Best not tell any Japanese or Korean folk ...
MoreCoffee was stating: Best not tell any Japanese or Korean folk...
Nothing to do with Catholics. Besides, Catholics only pray to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, period, get it yet. And why shouldn't they, after all it was the Catholic Church that coined the word "Trinity "
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That was likely before they were totally corrupted by the teaching magisterium!
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
If that's true, then why is there a place at Father Flannigan's tomb for people to write down and leave prayers to him, for him to then take to God? Remember, according to the Bible, there is only one mediator. Jesus.
PreachTony
Active Member
You want to apply an Old Testament practice to the New Testament church? Job was acting as a priest here on behalf of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. From the institution of the law until the resurrection and ascension we had a priesthood in place, offering up sacrifice. But the death of Christ on the cross and the resurrection, followed by the ascension, brought an end to that priesthood. Why? Because the law was no longer the governing force over us, but instead we found ourselves under Grace.Job 42:8-9 said:
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ established for us a heavenly priesthood. He became our high priest; a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. When the law changed to grace, it became necessary that the priesthood also change. The priesthood was taken out of the hands of fallible man and placed into the hands of infallible God.Hebrews 7:11-17 said:
When the veil of the Temple was torn, it opened the Holy of Holies to all. The necessity of sacrifice under the law was ended. Instead of requiring a priest to enter in and make intercession for us, we now can go straight before the Throne of Grace, and make petition unto God, and know that we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ, our High Priest.
Don't try to apply a literalist interpretation to Revelation. It can get you in trouble.Revelation 8:4 said:
Preach Tony, all that you write in your previous post is only conflicting protestant opinion. That vogue concept was never preached or practiced by any Christian [ including Jesus and His apostles ] It came into practice 1500 years after Jesus had already formed His Apostolic Church.
PreachTony
Active Member
Would you actually mind telling me what part is "conflicting protestant opinion?" Or are you just making generic comments against posts you dislike because they go against your desire to hold to such traditions? You used a few pronouns, but you never made clear what they relate to from my post.
" Conflicting Protestant opinions'' is my way of saying that you all say you pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance before reading Sacred Scripture yet very few of your interpretations match each other in your Protestant denominations, either you people are confused or your Holy Spirit is confused. I honestly do not believe we can blame it on the Holy Spirit.
The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them. And as I posted on another thread: 'The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" 1 Cor. 4:16–17. Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" 1 Cor. 11:1–2.
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Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
Simple fact is, the Bible states in Exodus "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,". So, even the act of bowing before them is wrong.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Then you are saying you do not pray to ... nor bow down to... nor serve the dead??
Originally Posted by BobRyan
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The hindus say the same thing about that - they say they are praying to the one that the image represents.
As do Catholics.
Originally Posted by BobRyan
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Most Christians do not shape their Bibles in the form of Mary - bow down before them as promise to serve Mary.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When you make requests of the dead you are doing what Isaiah 8:19 says not to do, the Bible says not to "consult the dead on behalf of the living".
We do consult the living on behalf of the living -- all the time. Just not the dead.
By contrast we have the contradictory teaching about "communion with the dead"
Catholic Catechism on communion with the dead.
[FONT="]958[/FONT][FONT="] Communion with the dead[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT][FONT="] "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
[FONT="]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/958.htm[/FONT][/FONT]
We do consult the living on behalf of the living -- all the time. Just not the dead.
By contrast we have the contradictory teaching about "communion with the dead"
Catholic Catechism on communion with the dead.
[FONT="]958[/FONT][FONT="] Communion with the dead[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT][FONT="] "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
[FONT="]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/958.htm[/FONT][/FONT]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tell me if I have this right.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3K...ice%22&f=false
Prayer to St. Francis
– St. Francis
Book: The Catholic Catechism
By John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
And in that same sectionBy John Hardon
THE CATHOLIC CATECHISM
The Catholic Church carefully distinguishes the worship of adoration given
to God and the worship of veneration offered to the angels and saints.
This is completely different from the veneration offered to the angels
and saints, no matter how exalted. They deserve to be honored because of
their nearness to God. Even the Blessed Virgin, though honored with
pre-eminent veneration by the faithful, is nevertheless a creature. She is
worshipped as the greatest of the saints and the Queen of Angels, but she
is not adored.
Online book - and saints, no matter how exalted. They deserve to be honored because of
their nearness to God. Even the Blessed Virgin, though honored with
pre-eminent veneration by the faithful, is nevertheless a creature. She is
worshipped as the greatest of the saints and the Queen of Angels, but she
is not adored.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3K...ice%22&f=false
Prayer to St. Francis
– St. Francis
faithful servant and friend of Jesus...
... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.
I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.
It is not at all clear that worship and serving are not involved here.... the Church honors and invokes you
universally as the patron of hopeless cases,
of things despaired of.
Pray for me who am so miserable;
make use,
I implore you,
of this particular privilege accorded to you,
to bring visible and speedy help,
where help is almost despaired of.
Come to my assistance in this great need......
in ALL my necessities,
tribulations and sufferings,
particularly (here make your request),
and that I may bless God with you
and all the elect forever.
I promise you,
O blessed St. Jude,
to be ever mindful of this great favor,
and I will never cease to honor you
as my special and powerful patron
and to do all in my power
to encourage devotion to you.
Amen.
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold i.e., two gold statues of angels; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" Ex. 25:18–20.
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" 1 Chr. 28:18–19. David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
Now, as Lakeside already mentioned, bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshiping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying and he/she isn't worshiping the statue or praying to it.
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" 1 Chr. 28:18–19. David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
Now, as Lakeside already mentioned, bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshiping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying and he/she isn't worshiping the statue or praying to it.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
You don't kneel before one king in order to ask a petition of another. An Asian doesn't bow to one person to show respect for a second. In the same vein, you don't kneel and pray before an image, and pray to someone else.