RCC Lateran IV command to Exterminate

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church - says that the Canon Law of LATERAN IV 1215 Canon 3 - calling for the "extermination of heretics" and Jews -- is "infallibly" correct to this very day.

This downward spiral illustrated in 1215 (and kept up in the dark ages) leads to a great many incidents of torture and death including those of the inquisition. 50 million Christians died this way according to some.

BobRyan&Old Regular your knowledge of the Inquisition is twisted. In case you're not aware of it the Inquisition was intended not to convert people, but to find people who were outwardly claiming to be Christian but secretly practiced another religion, such as people who had become Christian outwardly, but who were still secretly practicing anti-Messianic Judaism, Islam, or Albigensianism, this last being a religion claiming that there are two gods, one good and one evil. The inquisition was thus an attempt to protect the purity of the Christian community.
Being over zealous along with the morbid death practices taken were used by both religious and civil courts including the Protestants.

The excuses for Catholic crimes against humanity in those dark ages - fall far short of accounting for the lack of remorse, confession, turning from such practices but rather claiming them to this very day of enlightenment - to be "infallibly correct".

horrific.

The so-called "Doctrine of Discovery" did in fact use ISIS-like logic to justify killing the natives of countries that you discover if those natives refused to convert.

In all fairness this also must be mentioned here and that is the Protestant peasant wars along with the Protestant counter-inquisition that killed Catholics. Thousands of Catholics were killed in England alone after the Reformation struck there.
The same thing was true in Ireland back then and again in recent years came the ''Troubles" along with the American West and other areas where the Protestants ventured after the Catholic missionaries had to quell the indigenous pagans.

Protestant John Calvin, for instance, was known for burning people at the stake.

In addition, Protestants were the big witch-burners. Witch burning never caught on in Catholic countries.

Imagine the horror of finding that some obscure protestant today still considered burning Catholics or witches alive an "infallibly correct thing to do" to "purify society or the church or doctrine" -- only THEN do you even begin to admit to the magnitude of the RCC problem that remains today.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[One Baptism]

It is interesting to note brother BobRyan, that as pointed out by yourself (as I am sure others also), the execution, or the "extirpation", of "heretics" (as defined by Roman Catholicism), is still legally binding to this very day, and still very 'necessary', as it is given in the current and most up to date Roman Catholic Canon Law, as well as in various Papal Bulls (as else, encyclicals, speeches, and so on), the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia and Catechism(s) (older or current), the various official Roman Catholic commentators on Canon Law itself, Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica, and commentaries on Aquinas therein, also Augustine's "two swords" doctrine, as well as completely valid under the Vat. II doctrine and practice, and so on.

This is all documented in context from those Roman Catholic sources, officially, with links to those Roman Catholic sources, directly from either the Vatican's official website, or those prelatures and or organizations set up to promote it, which have official sanctions, under the watchcare and guidance of their properly constituted authorities (of Romanism, ie, Cardinals, Bishops, etc), having their sanction, approval, blessing including the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur also.

If any would like me to go into this, I can in quite some detailed detail. It will not be light reading however, as most of it reads in a very particular manner, sometimes after that of Greek philosophized theology, or after that of Romanized Law (which is what Canon Law is based upon, Emperor Justinian, etc), or lawyers and so on (especially when getting into Canon Law).

So, what would be made known from those sources is that of studied and learned exposition and historical documentation. It can also be tied directly into Prophecy (future history), and also into the history (past, present & future) written in the Scripture.

PS. The problem therein, is not simply a Roman one, but also of her daughters, and as such, thus it will be an Americanized one also.

Revelation 6:11 - And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Revelation 13:15 - And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Walter]

The Catholic Church - says that the Canon Law of LATERAN IV 1215 Canon 3 - calling for the "extermination of heretics" and Jews -- is "infallibly" correct to this very day.

This downward spiral illustrated in 1215 (and kept up in the dark ages) leads to a great many incidents of torture and death including those of the inquisition. 50 million Christians died this way according to some.



The excuses for Catholic crimes against humanity in those dark ages - fall far short of accounting for the lack of remorse, confession, turning from such practices but rather claiming them to this very day of enlightenment - to be "infallibly correct".

horrific.

The so-called "Doctrine of Discovery" did in fact use ISIS-like logic to justify killing the natives of countries that you discover if those natives refused to convert.

Imagine the horror of finding that some obscure protestant today still considered burning Catholics or witches alive an "infallibly correct thing to do" to "purify society or the church or doctrine" -- only THEN do you even begin to admit to the magnitude of the RCC problem that remains today.

Wouldn't you agree?

Hello, Bob: I am listing for your consideration a link to a debate between Dave Armstrong (convert to Catholicism) and James White. It gives both sides of an exchange which after the initial letters are exchanged between the two of them, the issue to which your thread addresses is discussed. These letters are quite lengthy and many points are covered but I'd be interested to what you think about how Mr. Armstrong and Mr. White approach the subject of this thread. I generally consider all sides to an issue before taking my own position. That's why I enjoy this board so much. Many diverse opinions and positions! Let me know what you think of the debate if you have the time to read it.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/is-catholicism-christian-my-debate-with.html

 

[BobRyan]

Which part is of interest?

This?

Proverbs 26:4-5 "Answer not an anti-Catholic according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer an anti-Catholic according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." (Armstrong Amplified Paraphrased Version}


15 May 1995 James White


Dear James,
Greetings in Christ and His Church! I respond in the paradoxical spirit of Proverbs 26:4-5. Are you sure you're not a Democratic congressman, James? ....


in your case, you read out of the Body of Christ nearly one billion professing Catholics, based on profoundly incoherent and unscriptural arguments)

...

Your forays into this sub-rational territory are far too numerous to respond to, even if I had the desire to do so. I need not give even a single example. Nor is it necessary to quote the many biblical injunctions warning against an unbridled tongue. My other three correspondees ignored them. You give me little reason to believe you'd act any differently.

...
You are also silent with reference to my question concerning why you felt compelled to send your letter and mine to Eric Pement. Why bother? Very few are answering anyway (which fits into my stated theory as to why Protestants will not correspond with Catholics or talk seriously with them - because of the bankruptcy of their case). Morey sent a form for possible debaters which is to be considered by his board (no personal letter). Wessels sent a friendly, preliminary note, saying he might want to do something in the future. One more said he was too busy right now (he didn't seem anti-Catholic). Other than that, zilch. Par for the course.
In Christ & His Church, with Scripture & Tradition, Faith that Works, Grace & Sacraments, Mary & the Saints, Penance & Purgatory, Pope & Bishops, Peace & Truth, Love & Mercy,
Dave Armstrong

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/04/is-catholicism-christian-my-debate-with.html

I have to admit it is slow reading and not exactly riveting.

Is there a specific part you find helpful for discussion?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Walter]

Which part is of interest?

This?



I have to admit it is slow reading and not exactly riveting.

Is there a specific part you find helpful for discussion?

in Christ,

Bob

As far as the link I provided, both White & Armstrong address (White supports your view & Armstrong the Catholic view) the IV Lateran Council and the call to exterminate. But, you find it dry, so nevermind. However, in its primary sense, exterminate means to obliterate completely. It applies to heresy as a vice or error as well as it applies to a group of people. Within the context of the document you referred to, it means to cut off or root out. Pope Leo called for the extermination of the Islamic religion. It's too bad it didn't happen. We are paying the price now and will probably pay for it in a much bigger way in the future. BTW, Bob, if hadn't been for the crusades, you and the rest of us would be speaking Arabic right now and worshiping in secret.
All the claims of '50 million TRUE Christians murdered' are a farce. I don't think there were that many people in all of Europe, much less all of Spain at that time. Typical anti-Catholic nonsense. I believe the actual numbers executed were 4 to 6,000....too much....but the temporal powers worked against the Church, and one Holy Father had the situation in Spain misrepresented to him by one cleric.

I'll be off-line for a few days but will try to check in to BB when I return to catch up with the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

As far as the link I provided, both White & Armstrong address (White supports your view & Armstrong the Catholic view) the IV Lateran Council and the call to exterminate. But, you find it dry, so nevermind.

I gave examples from one of the larger sections where the text is almost useless for discussion. Is there some part that you find helpful in that 80 pages of back and forth?

However, in its primary sense, exterminate means to obliterate completely.

It is possible that the RCC defense is "we meant exterminate in a nice way not in a bad way" - but the actual facts of history show that it was in fact - in a bad way. The inquisition comes after that.

It applies to heresy as a vice or error as well as it applies to a group of people.

And certainly the Protestant governments would say that about the Catholics they were exterminating as well.

I thought in the modern age we would not long go for that sort of stuff.

All the claims of '50 million TRUE Christians murdered' are a farce.

You say that like you did the audit.

I don't think there were that many people in all of Europe, much less all of Spain at that time.

Correction: The dark ages of persecution by the RCC latest for 1260 years -

Typical anti-Catholic nonsense.

All history is "Anti-Catholic" if it is not complimentary to Catholicism.

We already got that news.

I believe the actual numbers executed were 4 to 6,000

You are stating "belief"???

==============================

[FONT=&quot]Latin origin for Exterminate:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare," meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word "exterminare" was formed from the prefix "ex-" ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day/2011/07/26/[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Origin[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]late Middle English (in the sense 'drive out'): from Latin exterminat- 'driven out', from the verb exterminare, from ex- 'out' + terminus 'boundary'. The sense 'destroy' (mid 16th century) comes from the Latin of the Vulgate.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/exterminate[/FONT]







[FONT=&quot]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Posted: August 9, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).
[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]=================================[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The question:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years[/FONT][FONT=&quot] because of the Catholic Church” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many [/FONT][FONT=&quot]others were Exterminated[/FONT][FONT=&quot] during the Peasants Wars[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by a Combination of civil and religious authority[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]==============================================[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11). [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]The Fourth Lateran Council[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure[/FONT][FONT=&quot], that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope[/FONT][FONT=&quot]], that he may [/FONT][FONT=&quot]declare the ruler's vassals absolved[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from their allegiance[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot] may possess it[/FONT][FONT=&quot] without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law is to be observed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]cross for the extermination of the heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges[/FONT][FONT=&quot] granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This then is the "infallible" position of the RCC not only demanding the extermination of dissenters but also describing the methods to force the civil authorities to comply with the RCC command.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Pretty hard to miss that point. Makes it very difficult to pin this on the civil authorities that are themselves being threatened by this decree if they fail to comply with it.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]reigned from 16 June 1846 to his death in 1878. He was the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church — over 31 years.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pope Pius IX, ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1846 - 1878.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) Quanta Cura:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]================================================================

The Catholic church on anti-Semitism, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Will Durant[/FONT][FONT=&quot] writes in The Story of Civilization:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Council of Vienna (1311) forbade all association between Christians and Jews. The Council of Zamora (1313) ruled that they must be kept in strict subjection and servitude. The Council of Basel (1431-33) renewed canonical decrees forbidding Christians to associate with Jews...and instructed secular authorities to confine the Jews in separate quarters, compel them to wear a distinguishing badge, and ensure their attendance at sermons aimed to convert them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Belitz, near Berlin, was burned alive on the charge that some of them had [/FONT][FONT=&quot]defiled a consecrated Host[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [...] In 1298 every Jew in Rottingen was burned to death on the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]charge of desecrating a sacramental wafer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Rindfleisch, a pious baron, organized and armed a band of Christians sworn to kill all Jews; they completely exterminated the Jewish community at Wurtzburg, and slew 698 Jews in Nuremberg.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the ecclesiastical Council of Zamora (1313) decreed the imposition of the badge, the segregation of the Jewish from the Christian population, and a ban against the employment of Jewish physicians by Christians, or of Chrsitian servants by Jews[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Story of Civilization: Part IV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"The Age of Faith" by Will Durant. Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pope Eugenius IV (1431-47)...added that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jews should be ineligible for any public office, could not inherit property from Christians, must build no more synagogues, and must stay in their homes, behind closed doors and windows, in Passion Week[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (a wise provision against Catholic violence)....[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In a later bull Eugenius ordered that any Italian Jew found reading Talmudic literature should suffer confiscation of his property. Pope Nicholas V commissioned St. John of Capistrano (1447) to see to it that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]every clause of this repressive legislation should be enforced, and authorized him to seize the property of any Jewish physician who treated a Christian.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As one of many examples of the decrees issued by Popes in support of persecuting and murdering non-Catholics, a 1487 bull of Pope Innocent VIII commanded that people [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"rise up in arms against" the Waldensians and "tread them under foot".[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Catholic historian Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards
heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation; every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor....It was only the absolute dictation of the Popes, and the notion of their infallibility in all questions of Evangelical morality, that made the Christian world...[accept] the Inquisition, which contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and love to our neighbor, and would have been
rejected with universal horror in the ancient Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines. On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).
On the downside, Catholics still persecute Protestants worldwide much more than vice versa, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]=============================================================================[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]High level catholic sources quoted in the public press -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By CANDICE HUGHES[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].c The Associated Press [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]VATICAN CITY (AP) – [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for heresy and other crimes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They banned the Bible in anything but Latin[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which few ordinary people could read. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which the Holy See only recently opened. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Etchegaray on Thursday [/FONT][FONT=&quot]swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]undeniably an ecclesiastical institution[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Debunking the claim that civil authorities being to blame and not RCC's iron fist.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By Alessandra Galloni[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]VATICAN CITY, Oct 29, 1998 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'' he said. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution[/FONT][FONT=&quot],'' he said. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to help curb heresy[/FONT][FONT=&quot], but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]One of the Inquisition's [/FONT][FONT=&quot]best known victims was the astronomer Galileo[/FONT][FONT=&quot], condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The Inquisition [/FONT][FONT=&quot]reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Vatican opened secret[/FONT][FONT=&quot] files. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The archives also opened the infamous [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Index of Forbidden Books[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Even the bible [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was on the blacklist. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Pope John Paul has said[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in several documents and speeches that the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]torture and killing of heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]19:01 10-29-98 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Thomas Bokenkotter is a Catholic and a historian of the Catholic church. His book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" reveals some non-flattering details of history for which many Catholics choose to attack their own historian for daring to admit to certain details of history.

In his own preface he says that if he is guilty of anything - it is in not admitting to enough non-flattering details to fit the actual history of the church.

"In spite of all my efforts I realize the book has its share of shortcomings and omissions which are perhaps inevitable in a book of this scope. Some critics, for instance, have noted, with a certain amount of justice perhaps, a tendency to glide over the negative and dark aspects of the Church's history... I can only say that after writing this book I am more aware than ever of how difficult it is to produce a balanced account of the complex concatenation of events, ideas, and personalities that constitute historical reality" ibid. p.IX[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]In Bokenkotter's book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" we find this candid remark concerning the inquisition in the "Historical Catholic Church" - p117[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]One instrument of PAPAL CONTROL over society that ORIGINATED at this time and that was viewed with much REPUGNANCE in LATER times was the INQUISITION. And it is one of Innocent's (Pope Innocent) less glorious titles to fame that he was the first Pope to apply force on a considerable scale to suppress religious opinions. The New Testament certainly contains NO basis for a theory of persecution, but after the conversion of Constantine, the Roman Emperors began the policy of using force against heretics..."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

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[FONT=&quot]How popular did this free-handed style of torture become among the spiritually elite?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]ibid pg 167. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Pope Urban VI "turned more violent and savage. Suspecting his OWN Cardinals of plotting against him, he put them to torture and five of them died shortly afterward, probably thrown overboard from the Pope's warship!"[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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