Breaking news actually old news "Early church Fathers Taught the Pre-Trib" view

[Iconoclast]

You seem to be the only expounding and speaking of the "Parenthesis Church" in all the recent post on the subject of pre-trib events. I haven't seen where one of the Posters in the thread has ever claimed there is a Parenthesis church. I have continuously said the church was always in god's plan.

Yet you continue to speak of the "Parenthesis Church" I have asked you where you find it since you are almost always the one who brings it up. So if you don't believe in it and we who believe in the Pre-Trib view don't believe in it why don't you just drop it? then I will not continue to say you believe in it as long as you bring it up you must believe in it. You seem to be hung up on there being one not us. Just as you are hungup on Darby. You also continue to accuse folks of being darbyites or calling everything posted a lie or false without backing it up with scripture that explicitly shows it to be that.

The parenthesis Church is the classic view of dispensationalism and any of the charts shows it. If you claim to not hold it fine....but in fact if you speak of the Church AGE you are holding to it. If you speak of the age of grace...same thing.

 

[OldRegular]

The parenthesis Church is the classic view of dispensationalism and any of the charts shows it. If you claim to not hold it fine....but in fact if you speak of the Church AGE you are holding to it. If you speak of the age of grace...same thing.

I will say Amen to that. blessedwife318 noted on the thread "Out of Whose Womb" she was taught this in Bible College. So any of these Rapture Ready folks been to Bible College likely heard the same thing!

 

[OldRegular]

Sorry, I'm new around here and have never heard of this so-called "parenthesis church" doctrine. I don't mean to derail this conversation, so can someone point me to a thread where the details of this are discussed, so that I may follow this most uncharitable thread with a little more understanding.

You can read about it on the internet! You will find little discussion on the BB about the "parenthesis" Church since all pre-tribbers claim they never heard of it???

 

[OneDayCloser]

Did you make that stuff up or are you afraid to post a link?

The OP is referring to Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" Book 5, Chapter 25, paragraph 3.

BTW, the entire Book does not talk about the "pre-trib" as Darby knew it.

 

[revmwc]

The parenthesis Church is the classic view of dispensationalism and any of the charts shows it. If you claim to not hold it fine....but in fact if you speak of the Church AGE you are holding to it. If you speak of the age of grace...same thing.

Never heard of it or read about it. God had it in His plan from eternity past. Scripture shows it and shows the Pre-Trib rapture and the early Christians believed it. The start of this post shows they did.

 

[revmwc]

I will say Amen to that. blessedwife318 noted on the thread "Out of Whose Womb" she was taught this in Bible College. So any of these Rapture Ready folks been to Bible College likely heard the same thing!

I've been to Bible college and was not taught of any parenthesis Church. HAve been to several churches and had Several pastor who taught the pre-trib dispensational view and nope no "Parenthesis Church." So why don't you show where it is taught by dispensationalist of modern times instead of repeatedly saying that all Pre-Tribbers believe it, that simply isn't the case.

Now this post shows that at least three early church teachers and writers taught a pre-trib view care to address that.

 

[robustheologian]

Sorry, I'm new around here and have never heard of this so-called "parenthesis church" doctrine. I don't mean to derail this conversation, so can someone point me to a thread where the details of this are discussed, so that I may follow this most uncharitable thread with a little more understanding.

Let me explain real quick some of the amil folks on hear say the Pre-Trib, Pre-mil folks believe in a Parenthesis church, not sure why you'd have to ask OR he usually brings it up. That and calls pre-tribbers darbyites thinking all of us follow Darby, which isn't true as this post shows.

The parenthesis Church is the classic view of dispensationalism and any of the charts shows it. If you claim to not hold it fine....but in fact if you speak of the Church AGE you are holding to it. If you speak of the age of grace...same thing.

You can read about it on the internet! You will find little discussion on the BB about the "parenthesis" Church since all pre-tribbers claim they never heard of it???

Yeah it seems to be getting heated here over the term "parenthesis". I find it a little funny since in seminary (and if you were to go to any Reformed seminary) that term is used a lot in reference to dispensationalism. The best explanation for this would be that dispensationalists (at least consistent ones) believe that God's purpose in history centers on Israel and that the Church is an intercalation or implant (parenthesis is really the best word) in that plan. Though one can make an argument for it with Romans 11, covenantalists dismiss it as bad hermeneutic. Like Icon said, if you believe in a dispensational church age, you believe in a parenthesis church. I find all this funny because dispensational theologians have no problem with that term.

 

[DHK]

I've been to Bible college and was not taught of any parenthesis Church. HAve been to several churches and had Several pastor who taught the pre-trib dispensational view and nope no "Parenthesis Church." So why don't you show where it is taught by dispensationalist of modern times instead of repeatedly saying that all Pre-Tribbers believe it, that simply isn't the case.

Now this post shows that at least three early church teachers and writers taught a pre-trib view care to address that.

I agree with you. I have a similar testimony. "Intercalation" is one of those 25 cent words as well. My vocabulary is limited. I admit--I had to look it up.
So if "intercalation" is a requirement to be a pre-trib, pre-mil, dispy that OR rejects, I guess I am not one of them.

 

[DHK]

Like Icon said, if you believe in a dispensational church age, you believe in a parenthesis church. I find all this funny because dispensational theologians have no problem with that term.

Not necessarily. That is only an assumption based on a belief of Darby-based dispensationalism, or your typical view of dispensationalism.
How do you know that is what a person believes unless you actually discuss it with said person. Don't assume what you do not know. (I really have a hard time getting this across).

 

[revmwc]

Well that gives you a Pre-millennial view but not a Pre-trib view. If anything a mid-triber could use this for support since you have the 3 1/2 years but nothing about the rapture coming 7 years prior to the Millennial reign.



I find this one hard as it has an old English style of writing. I'm guessing that the this was translated a long time ago. But from reading it several times I think it could just as easily be read as death being the early departure and the you being singular not plural. Especially the part you have written in red that says each of us has a day assigned to us, not that there is one day assigned to us all. But I will give you that this is also your strongest quote of them all.



This one is your weakest quote as it really puts Christians inside the tribulation period. Yes I know you are going to point to where it says that the saints will be gathered before the tribulation but given the context I think you would be hard pressed to prove that the tribulation he is talking about is the 7 year tribulation.
I'll break this quote down a bit to show why.

As any good Pre-tribber will tell you there is not sign before the Rapture, thats why it can happen at any time.
We also have 3 horsemen of the apocalypse described here with hunger, plagues and wars among the nations.


After talking about how the only thing left is for the antichrist to come he talks about how the Coming or advent of the Lord is nigh. Pre-tribbers make a clear distinction between the rapture and the second advent.


The sickle a reference to Revelation happens at the very end of the 7 years. So again this quote does not support a pre-trib view it only really supports a pre-mill view.


And also I will say that it is disingenuous to say that OR believes that the Church is a parenthesis.
He is correct that traditional dispensationalist believe that the church is a parenthesis in God's "Dispensations."

For Iraeneus the last week of Daniel is to be fulfilled and the dictator is said to come at the last half of it this Iraneaus "he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just." Thus a full seven year Trib and a literal dictator called the beast in Revelation. Still shows the amil view does not follow the early church.

Next is Cyprian, in speaking of the Trib he stated "to depart from it as quickly as possible." Christ coming as quickly or swiftly as possible. Then he stated "by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent." Early departure compared to a late one, such as a mid-trib or post trib view would show. The one which shows a church Harpazo or Rapture or Snatching away he says, "greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence" seems to be a reference to the Harpazo, snatching away and the early departure would be before the tribulation because he says "delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent.He was speaking of? "terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent" the Tribulation that is terrible things as seen in Revelation 6-19.

The final we see this, Ephraim stated "we ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging." what was he referring to, "here have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord." Again the Lord Jesus referred to the Tribulation and Great Tribulation that Ephraim is what was referring too. Then this " not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom" He saw the beast as the dictator of Rome. The Advent the age or however you refer of the wicked that again is the tribulation. Following he states, "prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world" prior to the advent of the wicked he says prepare for the meeting of the Lord that is what pre-trib teaching is all about. Christ comes for His bride before the advent of the wicked. Again we see "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" "The elect are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come that is to overwhelm the world."Clearly they were looking for the Lord prior to the Tribulation.

 

[robustheologian]

I agree with you. I have a similar testimony. "Intercalation" is one of those 25 cent words as well. My vocabulary is limited. I admit--I had to look it up.

LOL...I only remember that word because that was the only word a professor of mine could come up with.

 

[robustheologian]

Not necessarily. That is only an assumption based on a belief of Darby-based dispensationalism, or your typical view of dispensationalism.

This is true...there are those who call themselves progressive dispensationalists who do not hold to that. However, I think of progressive dispensationalists as inconsistent...which is crazy since I consider myself a progressive covenantalist. lol

 

[OldRegular]

The OP is referring to Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" Book 5, Chapter 25, paragraph 3.

BTW, the entire Book does not talk about the "pre-trib" as Darby knew it.

Many thanks for the information!

 

[OldRegular]

I've been to Bible college and was not taught of any parenthesis Church. HAve been to several churches and had Several pastor who taught the pre-trib dispensational view and nope no "Parenthesis Church." So why don't you show where it is taught by dispensationalist of modern times instead of repeatedly saying that all Pre-Tribbers believe it, that simply isn't the case.

I can't say I blame anyone for denying they have heard of the "parenthesis" Church.

Now this post shows that at least three early church teachers and writers taught a pre-trib view care to address that.

Really?

 

[OldRegular]

Yeah it seems to be getting heated here over the term "parenthesis". I find it a little funny since in seminary (and if you were to go to any Reformed seminary) that term is used a lot in reference to dispensationalism. The best explanation for this would be that dispensationalists (at least consistent ones) believe that God's purpose in history centers on Israel and that the Church is an intercalation or implant (parenthesis is really the best word) in that plan. Though one can make an argument for it with Romans 11, covenantalists dismiss it as bad hermeneutic. Like Icon said, if you believe in a dispensational church age, you believe in a parenthesis church. I find all this funny because dispensational theologians have no problem with that term.

But folks on this BB get really steamed. Can't say I blame them. It seems blasphemous to me!

 

[OldRegular]

For Iraeneus the last week of Daniel is to be fulfilled and the dictator is said to come at the last half of it this Iraneaus "he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just." Thus a full seven year Trib and a literal dictator called the beast in Revelation. Still shows the amil view does not follow the early church.

Next is Cyprian, in speaking of the Trib he stated "to depart from it as quickly as possible." Christ coming as quickly or swiftly as possible. Then he stated "by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent." Early departure compared to a late one, such as a mid-trib or post trib view would show. The one which shows a church Harpazo or Rapture or Snatching away he says, "greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence" seems to be a reference to the Harpazo, snatching away and the early departure would be before the tribulation because he says "delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent.He was speaking of? "terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent" the Tribulation that is terrible things as seen in Revelation 6-19.

The final we see this, Ephraim stated "we ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging." what was he referring to, "here have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord." Again the Lord Jesus referred to the Tribulation and Great Tribulation that Ephraim is what was referring too. Then this " not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom" He saw the beast as the dictator of Rome. The Advent the age or however you refer of the wicked that again is the tribulation. Following he states, "prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world" prior to the advent of the wicked he says prepare for the meeting of the Lord that is what pre-trib teaching is all about. Christ comes for His bride before the advent of the wicked. Again we see "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" "The elect are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come that is to overwhelm the world."Clearly they were looking for the Lord prior to the Tribulation.

Try Scripture!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Try Scripture!

:laugh: Ahhhh. Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will say Amen to that. blessedwife318 noted on the thread "Out of Whose Womb" she was taught this in Bible College. So any of these Rapture Ready folks been to Bible College likely heard the same thing!

Brain washing, pure and simple. And they crank them out like donuts at your local donut shop.

 

[revmwc]

Try Scripture!

I showed tou scripture in the thread did Paul teach a Pre-Trib view. You scoffed and said no one before Darby taught a pre-Trib view. Now I show you folks who in fact did teach a Pre-Trib view before Darby developed a systematic view which is all he did. Now you want scripture, I have shown you both you continue to reject both even with proof before you. Look these men up I am fairly sure you will find there teaching.

 

[revmwc]

Brain washing, pure and simple. And they crank them out like donuts at your local donut shop.

He can't get folks to comment on his Of out whose womb Post so He Highjacks mine by advocating it and of course since you agree with him you help highjack this post.