Breaking news actually old news "Early church Fathers Taught the Pre-Trib" view

[HankD]

Brethren, every doctrine of the church has had a history of "followers".
The Trinity took 3 centuries to be clarified and ratified by the church using a mosaic of scripture.

Studying this history one will find the remains of a great deal of error regarding the doctrine of the Trinity and (it may surprise you) bloodshed as well.

Eschatology has now become important because it is the season for it because it is IMO coming to pass.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

As the Coming of the Lord becomes more and more evident men will study it in an attempt to be "rightly dividing the word of truth" trying to understand all the ramifications and indeed some things about His coming which are difficult...

2 Peter 3
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It is much easier just to condemn someone to the class of those who "wrest the scripture" than to be patient with each other and discuss our views.

In fact, (often times) it would almost seem that condemnation is the preferable method to communications in the sharing of views. Many years ago when I joined with the BB this was also part of my pool of defenses of which I have repented.

To be sure dispensationalism has had its share of kooks (trying to be kind in my choice of words) but it is "progressing" and being refined as many other doctrines of the church in the passage of time.

In times past I have cited many church fathers when I did battle with brother asterisk Tom (our resident preterist) and you can find these "discussions" in the archives.

But let me tell you much study is indeed a weariness to the flesh and neither Tom or myself want to have to go through that hassle again.
Scan the archives and save yourself the sweat and the exchange of insults (which will trouble your soul later).

Anyway, I'm hoping Tom is wrong and the Lord has yet to come (well, I know He has yet to come) and then when He does come the debate will be over and I suspect we won't even care anymore when we behold His glory.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

I showed tou scripture in the thread did Paul teach a Pre-Trib view. You scoffed and said no one before Darby taught a pre-Trib view. Now I show you folks who in fact did teach a Pre-Trib view before Darby developed a systematic view which is all he did. Now you want scripture, I have shown you both you continue to reject both even with proof before you. Look these men up I am fairly sure you will find there teaching.

You showed Scripture that you think taught a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church but it does not. all it shows is the resurrection of believers. Absolutely nothing is said about being "snatched" out to avoid the great seven year tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

He can't get folks to comment on his Of out whose womb Post so He Highjacks mine by advocating it and of course since you agree with him you help highjack this post.

I suspect it is because those who have been seduced by the concept of the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church are embarrassed that the blasphemous doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church is a part of pre-trib-dispensationalism.

They should be ashamed. But you and any others should be more ashamed of their claim that they were ignorant of that doctrine. I would note that "blessedwife318" posted the following:

I will back you up on this OR. I have been in Dispensational Churches my whole life and went to a very Dispensational Bible College and that is exactly what I was taught. When we went through the 7 Dispensations even my chart in my notes that the Church age in Parentheses. Also there was no shying away from the fact that Darby was the one that systematized Dispensational teaching and the Scofield was influential in getting it to the masses.

Now full disclosure I still consider myself part of the Dispensational camp, although its becoming less and less true. I am very Pre-Mill in my Eschatology but I have never been Pre-trib despite growing up in side Pre-trib Dispensational circles. I have been studying Convent Theology here more of late and find it intriguing although I still can't wrap my head around A-Mill Eschatology. But you are not wrong in what you have stated about the history of Dispensationalism.

Others should be as honest as she is!

 

[revmwc]

You showed Scripture that you think taught a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church but it does not. all it shows is the resurrection of believers. Absolutely nothing is said about being "snatched" out to avoid the great seven year tribulation.

So why don't you break that scripture down ? Instead of posting your own scripture which you believe refutes what was just written? Or you just simply say it is a lie and doing nothing, which is your MO.

You very seldom break anything down and very seldom try to prove why it is wrong. Simply calling it a lie or saying it false doesn't try to show why, it just shows your opinion. which is what almost all of us try to do on these Threads. The thing is you can't disuade me on what I believe the Holy Spirit lead me to believe anymore than I can disuade you, unless it is with documentation outside of the Bible like this post shows and which anyone can go on the internet or into their personal library and find.

 

[blessedwife318]

I find it interesting that no one has responded to my post where I break down the quotes showing that they don't support the Pre-Trib view as much as the OP would like them to.

 

[OldRegular]

So why don't you break that scripture down ? Instead of posting your own scripture which you believe refutes what was just written? Or you just simply say it is a lie and doing nothing, which is your MO.

You very seldom break anything down and very seldom try to prove why it is wrong. Simply calling it a lie or saying it false doesn't try to show why, it just shows your opinion. which is what almost all of us try to do on these Threads. The thing is you can't disuade me on what I believe the Holy Spirit lead me to believe anymore than I can disuade you, unless it is with documentation outside of the Bible like this post shows and which anyone can go on the internet or into their personal library and find.

The Scripture you posit as teaching the "snatching away" of the Church has been refuted by exegesis many times. Do you honestly believe one more time would change your mind?

 

[OldRegular]

I find it interesting that no one has responded to my post where I break down the quotes showing that they don't support the Pre-Trib view as much as the OP would like them to.

They don't because they can't. That is their mode of operation. Ignore that which you can't refute or attack; and they don't want to attack you!

 

[revmwc]

The Scripture you posit as teaching the "snatching away" of the Church has been refuted by exegesis many times. Do you honestly believe one more time would change your mind?

No but when you say it is a lie or false you should show how you believe it to false or a lie. Otherwise that comment is like hot air it fades away!

 

[blessedwife318]

They don't because they can't. That is their mode of operation. Ignore that which you can't refute or attack; and they don't want to attack you!

We will see what happens in the other thread where I just took a part Matt 24 and 25 for them.

 

[OldRegular]

No but when you say it is a lie or false you should show how you believe it to false or a lie. Otherwise that comment is like hot air it fades away!

Don't accuse me of saying Scripture is a lie or false! Why don't you respond to "blessedwife318"?

 

[revmwc]

Don't accuse me of saying Scripture is a lie or false! Why don't you respond to "blessedwife318"?

I did respond to her in the other post we had a very discussion about it.

 

[revmwc]

We will see what happens in the other thread where I just took a part Matt 24 and 25 for them.

I broke it down for you in the other post.

 

[blessedwife318]

But you have not responded to the post I have done in this thread breaking down the church fathers statements

 

[revmwc]

But you have not responded to the post I have done in this thread breaking down the church fathers statements

Post #50 is the answer to you here at least the one I have seen is there another I missed that I need to answer?

 

[blessedwife318]

Post #50 is the answer to you here at least the one I have seen is there another I missed that I need to answer?

Sorry I missed your reply

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

 

[revmwc]

Don't accuse me of saying Scripture is a lie or false! Why don't you respond to "blessedwife318"?

Post #50 did answer her in here.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I will snip and cut the vile attacks and using "heresy" or "blasphemy" words that may NOT be used on the BB to talk about other believers' interpretation.

And going to give a vacation soon . .

 

[blessedwife318]

So I finally got a chance to be at a computer long enough to google the quotes in the OP. Interesting if you ask me to look at them in context.

Here is the first one Cyrain of Carthage

2. For he who wars for God, dearest brethren, ought to acknowledge himself as one who, placed in the heavenly camp, already hopes for divine things, so that we may have no trembling at the storms and whirlwinds of the world, and no disturbance, since the Lord had foretold that these would come. With the exhortation of His fore-seeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come, He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place; and lest an unexpected and new dread of mischiefs should shake us, He previously warned us that adversity would increase more and more in the last times. Behold, the very things occur which were spoken; and since those occur which were foretold before, whatever things were promised will also follow; as the Lord Himself promises, saying, But when you see all these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is at hand. Luke 21:31 The kingdom of God, beloved brethren, is beginning to be at hand; the reward of life, and the rejoicing of eternal salvation, and the perpetual gladness and possession lately lost of paradise, are now coming, with the passing away of the world; already heavenly things are taking the place of earthly, and great things of small, and eternal things of things that fade away. What room is there here for anxiety and solicitude? Who, in the midst of these things, is trembling and sad, except he who is without hope and faith? For it is for him to fear death who is not willing to go to Christ. It is for him to be unwilling to go to Christ who does not believe that he is about to reign with Christ.

Seems like he thought they were in the midst of the tribulation that Christ Foretold. Hard to believe in a pre-trib view when you think you are in the tribulation.

22. That in the meantime we die, we are passing over to immortality by death; nor can eternal life follow, unless it should befall us to depart from this life. That is not an ending, but a transit, and, this journey of time being traversed, a passage to eternity. Who would not hasten to better things? Who would not crave to be changed and renewed into the likeness of Christ, and to arrive more quickly to the dignity ofheavenly glory, since Paul the apostle announces and says, For our conversation is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Lord Jesus Christ; who shall change the body of our humiliation, and conform it to the body of His glory? Philippians 3:21 Christ the Lord also promises that we shall be such, when, that we may be with Him, and that we may live with Him in eternal mansions, and may rejoice in heavenlykingdoms, He prays the Father for us, saying, Father, I will that they also whom You have given me be with me where I am, and may see the glory which You have given me before the world was made. John 17:24 He who is to attain to the throne of Christ, to the glory of the heavenly kingdoms, ought not to mourn nor lament, but rather, in accordance with the Lord's promise, in accordance with his faith in thetruth, to rejoice in this his departure and translation.
23. Thus, moreover, we find that Enoch also was translated, who pleased God, as in Genesis the Holy Scripture bears witness, and says, And Enoch pleased God; and afterwards he was not found, becauseGod translated him. Genesis 5:24 To have been pleasing in the sight of God was thus to have merited to be translated from this contagion of the world. And moreover, also, the Holy Spirit teaches by Solomon, that they who please God are more early taken hence, and are more quickly set free, lest while they are delaying longer in this world they should be polluted with the contagions of the world. He was taken away, says he, lest wickedness should change his understanding. For his soul was pleasing to God; wherefore hasted He to take him away from the midst of wickedness. Wisdom 4:11 So also in the Psalms, the soul that is devoted to its God in spiritual faith hastens to the Lord, saying, How amiable are your dwellings, O God of hosts! My soul longs, and hastes unto the courts of God.
24. It is for him to wish to remain long in the world whom the world delights, whom this life, flattering anddeceiving, invites by the enticements of earthly pleasure. Again, since the world hates the Christian, why do you love that which hates you? And why do you not rather follow Christ, who both redeemed you andloves you? John in his epistle cries and says, exhorting that we should not follow carnal desires and lovethe world. Love not the world, says he, neither the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, and the lustof the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but of the lust of the world. And the world shall pass away, and the lust thereof; but he who does the will of God abides for ever, even as God abides for ever. 1 John 2:15 Rather, beloved brethren, with a sound mind, with a firm faith, with a robust virtue, let us be prepared for the whole will of God: laying aside the fear of death, let us think on the immortality which follows. By this let us show ourselves to be what we believe, that we do not grieve over the departure of those dear to us, and that when the day of our summons shall arrive, we come without delay and without resistance to the Lord when He Himself calls us.
25. And this, as it ought always to be done by God's servants, much more ought to be done now— now that the world is collapsing and is oppressed with the tempests of mischievous ills; in order that we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. If in your dwelling the walls were shaking with age, the roofs above you were trembling, and the house, now worn out and wearied, were threatening an immediate destruction to its structure crumbling with age, would you not with all speed depart? If, when you were on a voyage, an angry and raging tempest, by the waves violently aroused, foretold the coming shipwreck, would you not quickly seek the harbour? Lo, the world is changing and passing away, and witnesses to its ruin not now by its age, but by the end of things. And do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an earlier departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?

The entire context makes it clear that the early departure he is talking about is death. That is why context is so important.
here is the Link

Pseudo Ephraim was a lot harder to find on Google, as most of them took me to rapture ready sites. But I did find this site that give a bit more context.

I wish I could find the entire thing but that was not coming up on google, so if someone could post a link that has the entire writings I would appreciate it.

Because the eye of the soul is not alert through great blindness and vain distractions, for this reason we are unable to perceive the tribulation upon us. (31) See, the holy and just are even now being chosen and gathered into the harbour of life, (32) that they might not see the tribulation and scandals which are coming upon us through our sins ... (33) They are being chosen, and we are nodding off. They are being snatched away, and we are being dragged off towards the vain world ... They are going with boldness towards God ... The Lord's coming is at the doors ... (34) The heavenly trumpet is ready to sound at God's command, and the universe to shake at its dread call, that it may rouse the dead and that each may be rewarded in accordance with their deeds. (35) The powers of heaven stand ready in their ranks to advance with fear before the Bridegroom as he comes in glory on the clouds of heaven to judge the living and the dead ... (37) If we do not now hasten and weep unrestrainedly, repenting fully in humility of soul and great meekness, how each one of us is going to lament at the tribulation ... (39) When we see the saints again in glory, flying in light on the clouds of the air to meet Christ, the King of Glory, but see ourselves in the great tribulation, who will be able to bear that shame and the dread reproach ?24 Then he concludes, (44) For see, the Lord is standing at the door to bring to an end this vain age.25

Again death seems to be what he is talking about, unless you want to make the argument that only really ‘spiritual’ Christians will be ruptured while the rest of the ‘cardinal’ Christians will go into the tribulation.

 

[blessedwife318]

I'm surprised there is no response to this yet. Or did these early church father just get taken out I'd the equation?

 

[revmwc]

I'm surprised there is no response to this yet. Or did these early church father just get taken out I'd the equation?

No we see he taught a pre-trib view you don't see it that way, your free choice.