Jesus on the Rapture of the Chruch

[revmwc]

Here is why I have always had a problem with the pre-trib view even though that's what I was raised with and even went to a Bible college that viewed it as the ONLY acceptable view is that there is no consistent way to interpret passages of Scripture. We start with the idea of the rapture being the gathering of the church or the elect. But then if one shows verses that talk about the gathering of the elect the interpretation is changed to being the second coming. It is clear from having studied dispensational teaching that they have the frame work of the last days set up in advance of looking at Scripture that they just plug into the frame work. Rapture comes before the tribulation so any verse that talks about gathering after the tribulation starts can't be the rapture it has to be something else.

There are two gatherings in Revelation well possibly three, the elect are called out from Babylon as she burns. Then the unbelievers are gathered and slain by Christ. That is clear in Revelation 19:21, while the Tribualtion saints that are alive live on and go alive into the Millennial Kingdom. With those saints that come with Christ to reign upon thrones. Those of the O.T., N.T. and Tribulation. That completes the First Resurrection chapter 20 tells us. But the rest of the dead lived not that is were not resurrected until the 1000 years were completed. It is very clear when you understand the Apocalyptic form it was written in as they would have at the time of the writing and not with preconceived views.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is why I have always had a problem with the pre-trib view even though that's what I was raised with and even went to a Bible college that viewed it as the ONLY acceptable view is that there is no consistent way to interpret passages of Scripture. We start with the idea of the rapture being the gathering of the church or the elect. But then if one shows verses that talk about the gathering of the elect the interpretation is changed to being the second coming. It is clear from having studied dispensational teaching that they have the frame work of the last days set up in advance of looking at Scripture that they just plug into the frame work. Rapture comes before the tribulation so any verse that talks about gathering after the tribulation starts can't be the rapture it has to be something else.

And that framework was first developed by John Nelson Darby, which he claims was revealed to him after reading Isaiah 32.

 

[blessedwife318]

There are two gatherings in Revelation well possibly three, the elect are called out from Babylon as she burns. Then the unbelievers are gathered and slain by Christ. That is clear in Revelation 19:21, while the Tribualtion saints that are alive live on and go alive into the Millennial Kingdom. With those saints that come with Christ to reign upon thrones. Those of the O.T., N.T. and Tribulation. That completes the First Resurrection chapter 20 tells us. But the rest of the dead lived not that is were not resurrected until the 1000 years were completed. It is very clear when you understand the Apocalyptic form it was written in as they would have at the time of the writing and not with preconceived views.

I know your arguments. I could make your arguments. I'm not convinced. You have done a great job proving pre mill but pre trib I don't think can be proved with Scripture unless one does a lot of reading into it.

 

[blessedwife318]

And that framework was first developed by John Nelson Darby, which he claims was revealed to him after reading Isaiah 32.

That is true

 

[revmwc]

That is true

That framework was from early church fathers.

 

[revmwc]

And that framework was first developed by John Nelson Darby, which he claims was revealed to him after reading Isaiah 32.

That framework was from early church fathers like Iraneus and Cyprion and John and Paul and Jesus.

 

[blessedwife318]

That framework was from early church fathers.

No you will not find the dispensational frame work prior to Darby. You can find the Pre-Mill frame work in the early church but not the dispensational one. Proving that the early church father's taught ore-Mill view does not translate into them teaching the dispensation pre trib view.

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[OldRegular]

No you will not find the dispensational frame work prior to Darby. You can find the Pre-Mill frame work in the early church but not the dispensational one. Proving that the early church father's taught ore-Mill view does not translate into them teaching the dispensation pre trib view.

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Well said! They tried to make Isaac Watts a pre-trib-dispensationalist but their link rose up and bit them! {Was Isaac Watts a Pre-Trib-Dispensationalist?}

 

[HankD]

Oh well, this debate is like a weather cast report I heard in Kansas when I was going on a fishing trip.

"I guess we'll just have to wait and find out".

HankD

 

[revmwc]

Oh well, this debate is like a weather cast report I heard in Kansas when I was going on a fishing trip.

"I guess we'll just have to wait and find out".

HankD

It got high jacked as usual.

 

[HankD]

It got high jacked as usual.

Well, most Christians are dispensational whether they know it or not.

Test:

Do you eat ham, bacon, rabbit, lobster...?
Do you go to church on Sunday or the Sabbath?

Why?

HankD

 

[blessedwife318]

Well, most Christians are dispensational whether they know it or not.

Test:

Do you eat ham, bacon, rabbit, lobster...?
Do you go to church on Sunday or the Sabbath?

Why?

HankD

Well a conventional theologian could turn that around and say that most Christian's are Conventional whether they know that or not.
Test:
Do you eat bacon, and do you go to church on Saturday or Sunday.

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[HankD]

Amazing that anyone will get saved during the Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not around. I know this is one of Pre-Tribbers favorite proof text but I always have thought that they are really messing up Soteriology and Pneumatology by claiming that the Holy Spirit must be removed. A reading of Revelation shows that there are people saved during the Tribulation, so how are they saved. Also beamup said that there would be no Sealing of believers in the Tribulation but Revelation shows that is not true as well.

Rev 7:2-4 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

So we have 144,000 Jews sealed. I would say that the Holy Spirit is still active in the Tribulation.

The Spirit of God will cease His work as the restrainer of sin and the demonic forces of hell will come forth but the Spirit will indeed be here during the tribulation.

At very least the Spirit of God is omnipresent and nowhere can it be found (or that I can find) that He will cease enlightening fallen mankind as to their need to be saved.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Well a conventional theologian could turn that around and say that most Christian's are Conventional whether they know that or not.
Test:
Do you eat bacon, and do you go to church on Saturday or Sunday.

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Yes - indeed I do because in this dispensation of grace God is dealing with us by a different rule of economy, we are under grace and led of the Spirit not the Law of Moses.

I do go to church on Sunday because I am not under the dispensation of Law but the dispensation of grace.

Besides the Law only allows circumcised Jews to officiate and keep the sabbath and mikvah-ed women to keep the Sabbath. Ask any Hasidic Jew.

Under the Law, Gentiles are NOT allowed to keep the Sabbath even if they wanted to do so (well, we are free to go through the motions).


HankD

 

[blessedwife318]

Yes - indeed I do because in this dispensation of grace God is dealing with us by a different rule of economy, we are under grace and led of the Spirit not the Law of Moses.

I do go to church on Sunday because I am not under the dispensation of Law but the dispensation of grace.

Besides the Law only allows circumcised Jews to officiate and keep the sabbath and mikvah-ed women to keep the Sabbath. Ask any Hasidic Jew.

Under the Law, Gentiles are NOT allowed to keep the Sabbath even if they wanted to do so (well, we are free to go through the motions).


HankD

I am a part of the dispensation camp (although I may be arguing myself out of it) but your test is not legitimate. People in the Covenant Theology camp do not follow the Mosaic laws any more then we do and their theology explains why just like ours does. That's why I said they could turn it around on us.

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[OldRegular]

Matthew 25:1-13
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Five the number of grace these accepted or believed whatever term you want to use these a the believers in Christ the saved.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

The foolish church members who have not the Holy Spirit, oil almost always represents the Holy Spirit.

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

The cry and the trump as seen in 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Believers ready to go.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

They want the Holy Spirit but can't revcieve Him as the Bridegroom has come.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

They were left because He never knew them.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

We don't know when He is coming but He is coming and He made it clear He is coming for the Bride.

This passage has nothing to do with the so-called-pre-trib-"snatching} away of the Church. Rather it is a picture of the return of Jesus Christ. Consider the following:

Matthew 25:10-13
10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The message is that after the Return of Jesus Christ the door to Salvation is shut!

The passage in the OP clearly shows that those who belong to Jesus Christ will be ready when HE returns and after that the Door to Salvation is Closed. The two parables that follow in Matthew 25 teach the same truth. Then we come to a more explicit account of the return of Jesus Christ and a graphic picture of the White Throne Judgment {Revelation 20:11-15} in verses 31-46, sometimes called the judgment of the sheep and goats!.

Consider the following Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The "Salvation" of the above passage can only mean the Glorification of all those who were redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

John Gill writes about the passage from Hebrews:

Verse 28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, &c.] As man dies but once, Christ was offered but once, or he suffered and died but once; and that was not on his own account, or for his own sins, "but to bear the sins of many": not of angels but of men, and these not a few, but "many"; which is said to magnify the grace of God, to exalt the satisfaction and righteousness of Christ, and to encourage souls to hope in him: hence many are brought to believe in him, and many are justified by him, have their sins forgiven them, and are glorified; though Christ bore not the sins of all men; for as all men have not faith, all are not justified, pardoned, and saved: what he bore were "sins"; all kind of sin, every act of sin, and all that belongs to it; its filth, guilt, and punishment, even the iniquity of all his people; which must be a prodigious weight, and than which nothing could be more nauseous: his bearing them supposes they were upon him, though not in him, imputed, though not inherent; that he did not sink under them; that he made an entire satisfaction for them, and bore them wholly away, both from the persons of his people, and from the sight of justice. The way in which he came to bear them was this; he became a surety for all the elect; his Father imputed to him all their sins, and he voluntarily took them upon himself; where justice found them, and demanded satisfaction of him for them, and he gave it; which is an instance both of his great love, and of his great strength:

and unto them that look for him: with affection, faith and patience:

shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation; this is to be understood of Christ's visible and personal appearance on earth, which will be a glorious one; he will appear in his own glory, and in his Father's glory, and in the glory of the holy angels, and in the glory of his power, to the joy of saints, and to the terror of the wicked; for every eye shall see him: and this is said to be "the second time"; that is, that he appears on earth, and personally; for though he often appears to his people, it is in a spiritual way; and though he appeared to Stephen and to Paul, yet not on earth, but in heaven; and this is called the second time, with reference to his first appearance in human nature at his incarnation, and after that he ascended to heaven; and as this will be the second, it will be the last: the manner in which he will appear, will be, "without sin"; without sin itself; without any thing like it: without any infirmities, which though not sinful are the effects of sin; without sin imputed to him, with which he appeared before; without being a sacrifice for sin; and without sin upon his people that come with him, or he shall meet whom he shall raise, or change, and take to himself: and the end of his appearance with respect to them, will be "unto salvation"; the end of his first appearance was to obtain salvation for his people, and he has obtained it, and there is a comfortable application of it made unto them by the Spirit of God; but the full possession of it will be hereafter, and into this will Christ put them, when he shall appear: the Alexandrian copy adds, "by faith", and also some other copies.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, most Christians are dispensational whether they know it or not.

Test:

Do you eat ham, bacon, rabbit, lobster...?
Do you go to church on Sunday or the Sabbath?

Why?

HankD

Hank,

That has nothing to do with dispensations. That has to do with the message Peter received in a vision!

 

[HankD]

I am a part of the dispensation camp (although I may be arguing myself out of it) but your test is not legitimate. People in the Covenant Theology camp do not follow the Mosaic laws any more then we do and their theology explains why just like ours does. That's why I said they could turn it around on us.

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You missed the point bw, I said "whether you know it or not" - you are making a dispensational decision to eat and do those things the law forbids or disallows.

Now, why do you? Do you call it a Covenant change?
If so, how is that any different than a dispensational change?

"dispensation" is a bona fide biblical word as is covenant:

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The dispensation of grace is the dispensation whereby the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

In this dispensation we are freed from the responsibility of keeping the law of Moses (read Acts 15 the whole chapter).

Actually dispensationalism could be called covenantalism (with a lower case c). The "congregation of God" is no longer under the law (the mosaic covenant) but under grace (the covenant of jesus Christ) and in fact some Bibles are divided that way The Old Covenant - The New Covenant.

Covenant Theology however distinguishes between a covenant of works and a covenant of grace (which is what my research has shown and not so far off base as far as I am concerned). If not then define Covenant Theology so we can be on the same page.

I do object to their Reformed Theology, being a former Catholic and now a Baptist I would be prefer to be called a Separatist (I suppose) as in my view the Reformation did not go far enough but left us in some of the grave clothes of Rome.

We have come full circle and have dug ourselves into a theological hole in which no two Christian people on earth can have unblemished fellowship due to the permutations of interpretations of our systematic theologies.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Hank,

That has nothing to do with dispensations. That has to do with the message Peter received in a vision!

Read Acts 15, the whole chapter.

The Gospel had to go out to the Gentiles so we have been freed from the law of Moses (the mosaic covenant or the dispensation of the Law, choose your own nomenclature).

It would have been difficult to keep the Great Commission and carry a Kosher Kitchen though Asia Minor, Africa, and Europe and the outermost habitats of man.

So call it covenantalism (with a lower case "c"). Dispensationalism is a way of interpretation in order to explain the how and why of the differences God has dealt with mankind over the ages. He Himself has not changed but has changed the rules by which we are to live.

Personally, I don't like the term dispensationalism, frankly it has attracted more of its share of colorful characters than it deserves. To deny that the elements of dispensationalism go back to the early church is not accurate.
True as a systematic theology it has been compiled from the 16th century onward.

But so has calvinism though the doctrines of grace preceded John Calvin.

Just an after thought (though its the first and only thought)

the Second Coming is all about Jesus and like the old hymn says

When we see Jesus coming in glory,
When He comes from His home in the sky,
Then we shall meet Him in that bright mansion,
We'll understand it all by and by.

W.B Stevens, Farther Along

We have let the evil one rob us of the fellowship around this precious truth.

HankD

 

[beameup]

Amazing that anyone will get saved during the Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not around. I know this is one of Pre-Tribbers favorite proof text but I always have thought that they are really messing up Soteriology and Pneumatology by claiming that the Holy Spirit must be removed. A reading of Revelation shows that there are people saved during the Tribulation, so how are they saved. Also beamup said that there would be no Sealing of believers in the Tribulation but Revelation shows that is not true as well.

Rev 7:2-4 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

So we have 144,000 Jews sealed. I would say that the Holy Spirit is still active in the Tribulation.

Was the Holy Spirit "in the earth" prior to the Day of Pentecost? In what way was the Holy Spirit "different" in relation to believers following Pentecost?
Beameup is not saying that the Holy Spirit will be totally absent during the Tribulation. Many here seem quick to "put words in my mouth" with their accusations.
Those "sealed" during the Tribulation are sealed in their foreheads and they are genetically pure Hebrews, not the "body of Christ".
Their task is to bring the Gospel of the Kingdom to the uttermost parts of the earth, using supernatural knowledge of every language/dialect. As well, they will have supernatural instant transport as was the case with Phillip & Ethiopian.
Thus, the "harvest" of souls during the first half of the Tribulation will far exceed the number of souls saved in the last 2,000 years. However, faith in Messiah will mean certain death or renunciation. John mentions these "souls" under the altar in Revelation as being those from the Tribulation.