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I am going to quote another dispensationalist on this Forum:

From:http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99695

 

More senseless floor sweepings from a slaughter house!

 

Nevertheless, the word "thousand" must have a good reason to be taken allegorically rather than just because "others in the past have done it," or "monkey see, monkey do."
There must be good exegetical reasons to do so.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Five times in this short passage is a period of "a thousand years" mentioned. How can one not take it literally when it is referred to such a definite period of time.
The only reason I can possibly think of is that it would destroy one's interpretation of one general resurrection. Might that be true?

 

Interesting. You are willing to take seventy weeks as 490 years. But erroneously you split the 490 into two parts with no difficulty. Yet you insist the number 1000 in a book full of symbolism must mean 1000. When GOD told Elijah HE had seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal was that exactly seven thousand or could it have been 7001 or 7100 or was the 7000 simply a term that indicated that HE had a specific number in the Northern Kingdom who were a part of spiritual Israel!

 

You answer nothing so don't be childish!

NO! It is you who miss that all 490 years have been completed!

Jesus Christ, Christ being Messiah, is the only true Savior to come. He was crucified by Rome at the instigation of the Jews after the 69th week:

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Try to read the above carefully. Notice Verse 25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Jesus Christ begins HIS ministry after 69 weeks have passed. HIS ministry was about 3.5 years.

Then we read the following in verse 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

So AFTER 69 weeks Jesus Christ was "cut off" slaughtered; but not for Himself.

Who was HE slaughtered for? Those whom HE would redeem!

As I noted above the ministry of Jesus the Messiah was about 3.5 years.

Now when did the temple sacrifices and oblations cease to be acceptable to GOD?

Scripture says those sacrifices became unacceptable in the middle of the 70th week!

Jesus the Messiah was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, 3.5 years after HE started HIS ministry!

They were unacceptable after the death of the Messiah, Jesus! The Jews continued to slaughter animals just like they coerced Pilate into slaughtering Jesus the Messiah but those sacrifices and oblations were as described in the following Scripture:

Proverbs 15:8. The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: And certainly the sacrifices of those who conspired to murder Jesus the Messiah were an abomination to GOD and HE brought that to an end in 70 AD.

 

Ok, if after having it pointed out four or five times that you refuse to answer, you still do not answer, it is clear that you understand the answer dismantles your theology.

See you next time around, OR, I now return you to your regularly scheduled...well, whatever it is that you do.


God bless.

 

In the Old Testament Daniel and Ezekiel use symbolic language, Ezekiel more than Daniel in my opinion. Symbolic language used in some other OT books.

Revelation is written primarily in symbolic language. Some of the other books in the New Testament may use symbolic language or allegorical language to a limited degree.

The Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit!

 

I believe you are more suited to threads like "Was Ultron an Atheist?" or "Ethical moralism and the New Avengers movie"

 

The word "weeks", a Hebrew word, simply means "a group of seven." It doesn't mean the equivalent of our word "week" when we speak of Sunday through Saturday. It is simply "a grouping of seven," whatever those seven may be: days, months, years, etc. After a week of years, the Jews celebrated "the year of Jubilee, when all the sold lands were returned to their rightful owners. The slaves were set free. It was a "week of years."

We have here in this passage 70 weeks of years. From the context it is obvious that the 70th week has not yet come.

When God told Elijah that he had 7,000 that had not bowed the knee to Baal, why should I doubt him?
OTOH, there are passages in Scripture where there are some numbers that are rounded off so I have no problem with that either.
I believe what God says. It is a matter of faith--not twisting God's words to make them mean something totally different than what He has said.

 

You sure twist Daniels 70 weeks! Perhaps I should say "rightly splinter" Daniels 70 weeks!

 

God divided the Seventy Sevens:


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


And those who agree with God's division are rightly dividing them as well.


God bless.

 

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
--The Messiah was cut off. He died.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
7 + 62 = 69 or the time from Cyrus to the death of Christ. (about 483 years)

Now one week (or 7 years) still remain to be fulfilled.
There has been a partial fulfillment, but Daniel looks past that point, long term and sees a greater fulfillment.

He sees the very end. He sees some sort of flood.
He says, the end of the war desolations are determined.
A looser translation puts it this way:
"and war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided." (CEV)
--That never happened. Daniel sees something far more catastrophic; something world-wide; the same that Peter speaks of in 2Pet.3:5-7.

The covenant with Israel will be broken.
The Temple will be desecrated.
The KJV says: for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
--a difficult passage.

ESV And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

CEV Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.
--It is speaking of the Antichrist that will come and cause an horrendous amount of destruction. Then Christ will come and put an end to it all as described in Revelation 19.

 

I am repeating myself but the 70th week was finished almost 2000 years ago! It is remarkable how you can take an obscure passage of Scripture like Daniel 9:27 and build a doctrine around it! A good imagination I guess!

 

You can be color blind and keep telling people that the green you see is actually red. But that doesn't change the truth: Green is still green no matter what you see.
Repeating a false statement still remains a false statement. Repeat it a thousand times or more and it will still be false. You won't come any closer to the truth simply by repeating error.

 

When did the prince that shall come confirm the Covenant for one week?


God bless.

 

You explain how the 70th week is yet to come when Jesus Christ was crucified during the 70th week!

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

 

That's a good question.


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


We see Seventy Weeks, or sevens, prescribed for Daniel's People and the City, presumably Israel, an it is at the end of these Seventy periods of Sevens that we see the fulfillment "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."



25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Scholars debate the time of the decree, but most generally agree that in view are distinct periods of Sevens that represent 49 years, and 434 years. We can answer the question without getting into the details of the decree, but I will just throw in that the next verse tells us, I think, the date we can trace back from.

Notice that from the decree (commandment) to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince (Christ) there is said to be a period of 69 Sevens, which many interpret as a total of 483 years. So if we stop right there, we see that after 483 years the likely event to happen is Messiah arriving.


26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is where more debate comes in. Here we see that after the two periods of sevens which are presumably consecutive, at the end, not during, Messiah is cut off, but not for Himself. While that may have confounded the Old Testament Scholar and Student, we can, in retrospect, see this as a likely reference to the Crucifixion of Christ, Who is cut off (killed) at the end of the 483 years, yet leaving a final Week left to be fulfilled.

Some take a view that the "People of the prince to come" is a reference to Christ," an even make some good points which cannot be seen as unreasonable, for the most part. However, we ask ourselves if the People of Christ are going to destroy the City (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (reference to the Temple), and that seems a little unlikely primarily because we do not have any correlating Prophecy to substantiate the view, plus, we see explicit Prophecy that show that Antichrist will in fact wage an unholy tantrum on Jerusalem and it will be trodden underfoot of the Gentiles, which in no way can be thought to represent Christians.

We also look at our next verse...

...which has a few items of interest in determining whether the prince of the people to come is Christ or the Antichrist.

First, this prince will establish the Covenant with many for One Week. In our immediate text we know this represents a period of Seven, which fits with the fact that it is not seen before this, and of course we have a Week left in order for Prophecy to be fulfilled as it always is, to the jot and tittle, according to Christ.

Secondly, we consider what Covenant would be relevant to Daniel's People, Israel, and only two Covenants seem to be suitable candidates, the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant. Again, some great presentation have been produced to show that the New Covenant is in view, but seeing that The New Covenant is never indicated to be confirmed for a period of Seven Years, and that the Covenant of Law is definitely the First Covenant (pun intended) that would likely be relevant to Daniel's People (an their captivity a result of their failure to observe it, which correlates the fact that these Seventy Sevens are prescribed for Israel), makes it likely that indeed the Covenant of Law is in view.

Third, we see the period the prince of the people that shall come confirms, or strengthens, supports, makes strong the Covenant, and that is the remaining time period not yet fulfilled. So still we see a consistent scenario which we can see correlates to Revelation.

Fourth, we see the same one, the prince of the people to come, who confirms the Covenant for one week...causes sacrifice and oblation to cease, which while some might correlate to Christ abolishing the Covenant of Law, and He did, it is not a consistent scenario we cannot find fault with, because again, Christ did not strengthen either the Covenant of Law or the New Covenant for a Seven Year period, He did not cause sacrifice and the oblation to cease within the time of His ministry, we wouldn't have sacrifice and the oblation under the New Covenant to begin with, and besides all that...

...we already know Christ is cut off after the 69 Weeks.

Not in the midst, or middle of that Seventieth Week.

And I am out of time, so sorry this is kind of incomplete, but to answer the question...

...the simplest reason is because we cannot place Christ in the Seventieth Week to begin with.

Again, I have seen some reasonable presentations that, if I did not calculate the Prophecy we received in Revelation and 2 Thessalonians 2, as well as more found in Daniel, I might think seeing "the prince of the people that shall come" as Christ as well, except we see He is cut off presumably when the 69 weeks end.

I do see Christ as He that covenanted with Israel, but again, we just can't build a plausible timeline in that view. And only when we get into the New Testament Prophecies do we see a timeline that harmonizes on all point with Prophecy.

The Two Witnesses Minister for 3 1/2 years, are killed by Antichrist (the Beast), who himself is empowered for 3 1/2 years, bringing us not only a total of that last Seven that is missing, but corresponds to the prince that shall come whose people will destroy the City and the Sanctuary seen in Revelation 11. And that is precisely what Daniel 27 gives us. Someone who begins a period of seven years who is supportive of the Covenant of Law (Satan loves to bring people under the Law again) but who by three and a half years has gone by is at a point where he not only causes sacrifice and the oblation to cease, as Paul states, stands in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be a god. Thus the last half begins with not the Covenant of Law, but Antichrist completely set to destroy Israel, who in part is given refuge in the wilderness for the remaining 3 1/2 years.

Again, sorry this is so short. Like to put in references but I am out of time.


God bless.

 

Verse 26 places Jesus Christ in the 70th week. He was slaughtered after the 69th week!

Daniel 9:26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: