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Where is satans Kingdom and is it Still in force?
- Thread starter revmwc
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
DC asked:
So I thought perhaps he needed spectacles and to help out simply enlarged the print!
And you cannot ignore what is said in Ephesians 2:11-22!
Darrell last post on Revelation 11:1ff was:
"Did you notice: ...has already been fulfilled?"
The question mark in particular?
He didn't agree to its fulfillment.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So I will clarify it: I am just asking you to answer one question. Has this...
Revelation 11:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Already been fulfilled?
God bless.
The pastor is A-mill
Then I do not think he is representative of SBC churches, but is...
...an infiltrator!
God bless.
That is what is interesting, you take the time to emphasize the Hell/Hades (no pun intended) out of the passage which I have emboldened below, and surely it escapes you just how conflicting your teaching is with the very Scripture you highlight.
So I will ask again...
You emphasized it...now expound upon what it is the Scripture you emphasized actually teaches.
And we can proceed from there when you do.
God bless.
No offense taken, except that which you have felt. And it was not intended for offense but for your good.
And yes, I already know I can tell you something you have not heard before, because if it had been considered before you would be able to answer the questions I pose to you without hesitation.
For example, you said you were premillennial yet in all appearances denied a rapture, and would not give simple answers that even those indoctrinated into the Rapture Doctrine who do not bother to study, but simply take someone's (i.e., spouse, friend, teacher, Pastor, radio personality) word for it because they want to believe it...would be able to do.
It seems the inner conflict may stem from the conflict between that view and your husband's, and I can understand that, because it may intimate a betrayal of sorts that your heart did not want to acknowledge. But like I said, while it is good for a man and wife to be unified in doctrine, you may have sub-consciously have tried to deal with this issues on more than one front.
And I bet you never had someone tell you that before either.
Let's go back to your claim of pre-millennialism: if Christ returns before the Millennial Kingdom, then we know there will be physical people in that Kingdom, people who can fulfill the Prophecy Historicists write off, which has not been fulfilled. This places Prophecy into a category readily accepted by unbelievers and Bible Skeptics. It makes Prophecy nothing more than what we might see from somebody like Nostradamus. Some of it seems strikingly similar to what actually unfolds in history, but some of it is irrelevant, hasn't been fulfilled, and won't be fulfilled.
But all Prophecy, for the Bible Student, will be fulfilled exactly as all Prophecy has been fulfilled...to the jot, to the tittle.
And when it comes to Kingdom Prophecy, and Kingdom teaching, we know without controversy that what has been foretold will also be fulfilled...to the joy, to the tittle.
And Bible Prophecy states that there will be a thousand year Reign of Christ which will have inhabitants that will not die as we do, in fact one dying an hundred years old will be considered a child. There is no death in the Eternal State, that too is clear, so we have to have...
...physical inhabitants.
Before you began this current charade, you stated that those who live through the Tribulation will inhabit that Kingdom, and you are correct, that is clear from such passages as Revelation 20, and Matthew 25. The Sheep are those who come to saving faith in the Tribulation, and while one can say they had faith before the Tribulation began, we still have to say that only the believing, those who are, according to Christ's teaching, born again...will enter into that Kingdom.
And the fact remains that this negates the possibility of a Post-Trib Rapture, simply because of the fact that if the Rapture, which entails every believer being glorified at the same time, takes place at the end of the Tribulation, then there are no physical inhabitants that prophecy remain consistent as it always has.
If you can tell me you have honestly considered that, then okay.
You have never been in my camp.
This is already understood. It appears that you have had a hard time seeing a rapture at all.
How much thought have you ever given to the resurrection and Rapture of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?
Again, you have never been in my camp, and unless you face the inaccuracies of your current understanding, you may well spend the next twenty years indoctrinating yourself all over again. There are proven methods for rightly dividing the Word, and then there is indoctrination.
You choose.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have presented my views on the 3rd woe on other recent threads! But you really need to learn how to pose a question!
There are some SBC Schools that teach the A-Mil view and so it has been in some SBC churches for a long time.
I also heard a few years ago that the SBC now accepts Freemasonry.
Good to be independent...
This will be my last day here for a while, brother, and just wanted to say I have enjoyed the threads, and hope you continue in your efforts.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
{Note: the 1644 statement is from http://www.oldschoolbaptist.org/Arti...onOfFaith.htm; the rest of the statements are from Lumpkin’s Baptist Confessions of Faith which omits the statement from the 1644/1646 Confession!}
THE LONDON CONFESSION OF 1644/46
Article LII.
There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
THE MIDLAND ASSOCIATION CONFESSION [1655]
Article 16 [page 200].
“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”
THE SOMERSET CONFESSION [1656]
Article XL [page 214]
“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”
THE STANDARD CONFESSION [1660]
Article XX [page 231]
“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”
Article XXI [page 231]
“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”
THE SECOND LONDON CONFESSION [1677]
Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]
“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.
3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”
Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]
“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”
Ref: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99431
__________________
THE LONDON CONFESSION OF 1644/46
Article LII.
There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
THE MIDLAND ASSOCIATION CONFESSION [1655]
Article 16 [page 200].
“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men, just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may receive according to what they have done in their bodies, be it good or evil.”
THE SOMERSET CONFESSION [1656]
Article XL [page 214]
“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness, but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.”
THE STANDARD CONFESSION [1660]
Article XX [page 231]
“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth, both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men, sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable, weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory, in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”
Article XXI [page 231]
“That there shall be after the Resurrection from the graves of the earth, An eternal Judgment, at the appearing of Christ and His Kingdom, at which time of judgment which is unalterable, and irrevocable, every man shall receive according to the things done in his body.”
THE SECOND LONDON CONFESSION [1677]
Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293]
“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.
3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”
Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]
“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”
Ref: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99431
__________________
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
NO! It is a fact that until Scofield produced his book pre-trib nonsense was absent from Baptist Churches!
Let's look at this:
Article LII.
"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
There shall be a resurrection from the dead.
Both the just. We see it as a rapture, OR and his doctrine says general. This says nothing either way so we both agree with that part.
And the unjust we know this one occurs in Revelation 20 we are told that "the rest of the dead live not until the 1000 years has completed. So we agree with the article.
Everyone shall give account to God this too is true.
The church at BEMA seat or as Paul calls it the Judgment seat.
The unjust at the Great White Throne.
We all agree with that.
that every one may receive the things done in his body:
Again we agree we as believers receive rewards at the BEMA seat, gold, silver precious stone wood hay and straw.
The unbelievers receive the Lake of Fire.
Again we agree with that article.
It supports the pre-trib view beautifully.
So what?
It is a fact that Paul taught the Rapture in the First Century.
Still spam.
God bless.
"Both" contrasts the just and unjust, it isn't saying "Both of the just" and the unjust, meaning the dead and they which remain.
It is spam.
We need to concentrate on the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible.
The Church Father arguments are a circle of wasted time. Many of the men cast as antagonists likely to be of the Body, yet their views seen as taking precedent over Scripture itself.
OR presents spam to vilify those who embrace the view he hates, and presents spam of those who he thinks substantiates his view.
Neither are worth much when contrasted with the original source of Christian Doctrine.
God bless.
And I will just add, perhaps we can see Scofield, if he was a Pre-Tribulation believer, as just as important to Baptists as Luther was to Catholics. If Baptists were ignorant of this mystery until then, then again we see the danger of Systematic Theology, which is usually go through revision as it gets it's story straight.
I remember MacArthur speaking about the Vineyard, which put out a book stating their beliefs.
Macarthur points out one thing they forgot to mention in the first book...was the Gospel.
Let's try to get the basics correct and then...work on the finer points. History seems to validate the thought that this is what man's method usually is.
But not God's. He get's it right the first time, and nothing need be revised.
God bless.